2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02106.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 1.4 MB

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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 13:41:42 GMT
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In article <1992May21.704.3486@channel1>, [e-mail] (eliot gelwan) writes...
On 05-19-92 STEVE TIMPSON wrote:

ST}        OK everybody and especially you paranoids out there (Gary Stollman
ST}        are you listening).
ST}
ST}        I have a  watch  that  shows the current and future orbits of the
ST}        planets and after setting  for  5/5/2000 it shows the planets are
ST}        NOT,  let me repeat NOT aligned in any way, not even close.

>(Steve, I have a bridge you might want to buy.) We're supposed to
>take that as *proof*???!!!
>
>....eliot                                         |
>Internet: [e-mail]             -*-
>    RIME: ->CHANNEL [R/O okay]                   |

        Well since I  am  an  amateur astronomer and since to date it has
        proven to be accurate the answer is yes.  But since you appear to
        be one of these people  who  would buy into anything that anybody
        says without question then in your case NO.  Since at the time of
        my original posting all I had was  my  watch I made the check and
        posted  the  results.    Later  I  confirmed the  watch  with  an
        ephemeras at home.  I also believe that someone  in this file has
        already  pointed out via an ephemeras that there is no  alignment
        but then this is probably not accurate either is it ELIOT.    How
        can we trust an astronomical ephemeras


        Steve Food_for_the_Greys
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 16:02:17 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
>>    OK. People see ufo's all the time, and take pictures of them, etc.
>>Ufo's are seen as lights moving around un the sky.
>>These aliens have been able to navigate here through incomprehensible
>>distances in space and/or time, so, WHY do they fly with their lights
>>on? I mean, what do they need the lights for?? They can't need them
>>to see where they're going. And if their ships, in the course  of
>>operating, emit light, can't they cloak the light (like the Klingons).
>
>About the lights:
>If you believe all the observations about radios going crazy and car engines
>going on the fritz, then it's not just lights, but is wideband electromagnetic
>radiation.

I am not sure about -wideband- EM. I have a hard time seeing how it
would kill an engine, especially the older models. It would be more
plausable with a new computerized car I would think. How about something
simple like a strong magnetic field? Saturate the ferrite in the radio,
and as it moves (with the UFO) it would induce strong currents in the
cars ignition system. The problem I have with wideband EM (of apparent
great strength) is that it is very non-local, and should be picked
up at great distances.

>Instead of just asking why the "lights are on" or trying to capture them on
>film, someone should be trying to do a spectral analysis of the electromagnetic
>radiation.  "Lights" don't mean anything.  It's component frequencies that
>tell the whole story.

Maybe so, maybe not.

>Why they don't make contact:
>Maybe they're trying the best they can ... if they even exist.

Right, they have the capability to abduct people right and left,
travel (seemingly) great distances, and do all sort of incredible
things, and they cannot figure out how to say "We are here". This I
find beyond belief. If the abduction stories -are- fact, then they
would seem to have a grasp (although not a great one) of how humans
think and react. And they certainly possess the means to communicate.

>About the incredible distance:
>There's nothing in contemporary Physics that says anything about the topological
>structure of the Universe.  So there's no reason to believe that it is
>absolutely necessary to traverse the "incredible distance" between points A and
>B in order to get from point A to B.

And there is also nothing (non-speculatory) which says that it -is-
possible. You seem to be saying that due to lack of negative evidence,
it must exist. This is not a strong argument. Also, it seems that most
proposals require an infinite (mass, cylinder, etc), and these will
most likely prove difficult to construct.

>Nobody's ever proven that the Universe is simply connected (free of topological
>handles, or wormholes, and other such things).  Nor is the question even
>addressible in any contemporary Physical theory, since General Relativity and
>Quantum Theory are local theories, not global theories as would be required.

Quantum theory is extremely local, but why do you say the GR is local?

>They're perfectly consistent with just about any assumption made about the
>global structure of the universe.

Consistancy with an assumption?

>And now it's even known that one can do consistent Quantum Physics on closed
>loops in time without running into analogues of the time-traveller's paradox...
>so that "causality" can't be an a priori constraint in the structure of space
>and time anymore.

I have not heard of this, please elucidate.

>The null assumption that one must make is that there is no topological order
>to the Universe, and then to prove otherwise.
>
>So we have to assume at the very outset that there's things such as wormholes
>all over bridging remotes places in space and time, and the burden is to
>explain why they don't seem to exist, if they indeed don't.

Any assumption, made for any reason, is not automatically valid. Nor
am I aware of any reason whereby one is forced to make an assumption.
Since wormholes have never been observed, the burden of proof still
rests upon those who claim that they do exist. At least UFO's -have-
been observed.

>And all this is really premised on the view that space and time constitute a
>continuum, which it most certainly does not.  It's not a continuum at scales
>in length and time below the Planck units.

But we will be hard pressed to fit ourselves into such a space for
transport.

>And likewise, it would be silly to assume that in the vast domain of this
>galaxy or universe there is not a single intelligence that has come to a

All assumptions are of equal value, which is none. Logical proof is
futile and meaningless. I am saying that it is silly to assume, not
the other way around.

>far deeper understanding of space and time along that lines mentioned above,
>than humans have, that has allowed them to engineer vehicles capible of taking
>advantage of the existence of such topological irregularities (or whatever) to
>avoid having to travel the space between points A and B in order to get to B
>from A.

Yeah, where are warp engines when you need them? These devices make
great sci-fi plots. But till we can build a FTL device, that is about
the extent of it. You can prove us all shortsighted by inventing one
however. But it's gotta do more than just work on paper.

>I just wish our buses operated that way...


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
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Date: 27 May 92 04:11:23 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
>substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
>particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
>of these conductors, waves of different frequency interfere in various ways.
>It is a fairly common effect that moving a TV, furniture, or even having
>someone stand near the TV (due to the electrolytic solution we call blood)
>can effect reception.

Orientation and spatial position were not factors at all.  It was the actual
contact between a piece of metal and the skull that consistently brought about
the change in reception, regardless of positioning and orientation.

The phenomenon you're talking about is something totally seperate that can
even be made to happen concurrently with the above.
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From: [e-mail] (John Bof)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,talk.religion.newage,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Keywords: Too much LSD
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Date: 26 May 92 22:29:00 GMT
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[e-mail] (Eddie Saxe) writes:
>[e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????
>Me.
Metoo. But unsure...

Patrick

--
Patrick Schaaf          /   \  I speaking for myself, not for my employer,
St. Midget Road, HQ    / -.- \  Yoyodyne Programming Systems, and am in no
[e-mail]   ^/       \  way afiliated with it's management. No tie.
- use or remove this line tu support or prevent further .signature infaction -
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: What happened to the white spot in W.Strieber's brain?
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Date: 27 May 92 05:07:51 GMT
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   While we're on the subject of Whitley Strieber, the following appeared
   in the November, 1988 issue of BASIS, the Bay Area Skeptics' BBS.
   (Call the Skeptics' Board at 415-648-8944 for lots more good stuff!)



                    The "Transformation" of Whitley Strieber

                               by Robert Sheaffer


        On September 21,  1988, viewers of the popular daytime television
        show  "People Are Talking" on KPIX,  Channel 5,  in San Francisco
        saw an amazing thing.  Whitley Strieber,  author of such  popular
        works  of fiction as "The Wolfen",  and "The Hunger",  as well as
        the  best-selling  and  supposedly  true  accounts  of   humanoid
        visitation   in  "Communion"  an  "Transformation",   indignantly
        refused  to  let the hosts of the show do any  promotion  of  his
        latest  book!  No  doubt  the  viewers of  that  show  are  still
        scratching  their  heads about such inexplicable behavior on  the
        part of a guest doing a book promotion tour.  As the other  guest
        on that show,  the one who was all but ignored by the hosts,  let
        me explain why that strange scene happened.

        You  see,  forty-five minutes before air time,  I arrived at  the
        studio  and  was  escorted to the Green Room,  where  guests  are
        groomed and prepared.  There I came upon Whitley Strieber in  the
        midst  of  a  world-class  temper  tantrum.  He  was  indignantly
        refusing  to go on!  He apparently expected to be the only guest,
        and  to  have an entire hour to expound his fantasies  about  the
        humanoid  "visitors" who are said to be lavishing their  unwanted
        attention on him,  unchallenged and unquestioned.  I later  found
        out  that while he had left instructions with those arranging the
        tour that under no circumstances would he appear on any show with
        Philip  J.  Klass,  he  had not ruled out - at least  to  them  -
        appearing  with some other skeptic.  The producer of "People  Are
        Talking,"  Karen Stevenson,  a young woman of great firmness  and
        tact,   was  sitting  there  quietly  enduring  Whitley's  verbal
        assaults.  "I  don't know who this man is," complained  Streiber,
        "and  I  don't know what he will say!" Apparently he expects  all
        opposing opinions to be cleared in advance! Karen firmly repeated
        that  she had made all arrangements with his publisher,  and with
        his publicist,  in accordance with their instructions,  and  they
        had  raised  no  objections.  The young  woman  representing  his
        publicist  sat  there quietly and somewhat  nervously,  obviously
        wishing she were somewhere else.

        Whitley continued his tirade.  Pointing to me,  he shouted  "that
        man is going to go on and challenge my mental health.  He's going
        to call me crazy!  He's with that CSICOP, they're just as nuts as
        those new-age people.  They have a religion of disbelief." In his
        short  tirade against the skeptics,  who he says are in the habit
        of calling anyone who disagrees with them crazy,  Strieber called
        us  "nuts"  or "crazy" three times.  I pointed out the  irony  of
        this, but it was clear from the reaction of all involved that the
        best thing I could say at this point was nothing.  I kept  silent
        for a while,  enabling him to resume his tirade.  He had received
        long letters from Philip J.  Klass of CSICOP,  he said, that were
        "crazy," and made no sense at all. He also charged that the hosts
        of the show were bound to misrepresent his experiences by  saying
        that they are alien visitors,  while he has never claimed to know
        whether or not "the visitors" are extraterrestrial.  Those people
        who  claim  alien  encounters are just as  crazy  as  CSICOP,  he
        charged.

        Streiber  also claimed to be upset about the previous time he was
        on  the  show.  Karen recalled that it had gone  very  well,  but
        Strieber insisted it was a "stupid" show.  She suggested that  he
        was  perhaps  confusing it with a show in some other city  called
        "People  Are  Talking,"  of  which  there  are  several.  No,  he
        insisted,  he remembered it perfectly.  The audience at this show
        was  "stupid",  they  asked "stupid" questions,  and they accused
        him of being crazy. "I don't need your show," he continued, "your
        stupid  show!  My book ("Transformation") is number four  on  the
        Best-Seller list.  I don't need to do these shows! I'm getting so
        fed up with going on shows and having everyone laugh at me!"

        Karen emphasised that a live show would be starting very soon, on
        which  he  had  agreed  to appear,  and that  he  must  meet  his
        commitments.  But  Whitley still refused to go out and appear  or
        debate  with  me.  "Let him go on first.  I'll just do the  final
        segment.  And DON'T mention my book!  I don't want you to mention
        my  book at all if he is going to be criticising it!" Karen  once
        again  reaffirmed that he had made a  commitment.  Then  Strieber
        must have realized that he couldn't win this battle. He gradually
        decreased his level of objection, the bluster slowly fading as it
        became  clear that he was not going to be able to keep me off the
        show. "All right," said Whitley, "I will go on - but I WON'T LIKE
        IT!"  The magnitude of that threat stunned all who were  present.
        "And I'll never come back!"

        At  this  point  we broke to get on  our  makeup.  The  assistant
        director of the show,  Lisa Tatum,  had arrived in the doorway of
        the Green Room a few minutes earlier,  standing there silently in
        obvious  bewilderment.  Karen excused herself to go talk  to  the
        hosts of the show.  The makeup man, who had been listening to all
        this from the adjoining room,  expressed bewilderment to me about
        Whitley's  behavior  as he applied a light coat of powder  to  my
        face.  Returning to the Green Room,  in the few minutes remaining
        before air time,  I attempted to engage Whitley in a  substantive
        discussion,  to  disarm  his hostility.  I succeeded to  a  small
        extent.  He  objected mightily to CSICOP and everything it stands
        for,  displaying an extreme hostility to science as well. To him,
        both CSICOP and the "new agers" are "fascists", because they both
        seek to break down the individual.

        We  went  on stage at this point,  got our  microphones  on,  and
        waited for the show to begin. Whitley said nothing, and still was
        refusing  to  allow the hosts to mention the name of the book  he
        came to promote,  or to show its cover. We came on camera, and as
        I expected,  the early minutes of the show were entirely his,  to
        tell  his stories of things that go "bump" in the  night,  things
        that allegedly come into his bedroom, carry him up somewhere into
        the  sky,  and  poke needles into his skull and nose  to  implant
        probes.  He  neglected to describe at least on the air,  how  the
        beings  allegedly  inserted  a long,  cylindrical  probe  up  his
        rectum,  or  how the female humanoid was very interested  in  his
        penis,  as  was recounted in "Communion." The situation must have
        seemed at least a little odd to the viewers: here is a guest with
        many  weird  tales to tell,  but apparently without any  book  in
        which it is told!

        I  expected to be given a similar amount of time to question  the
        plausibility  and  substance of such claims,  but I had only  the
        briefest opportunity to respond. The two hosts then took the show
        to the audience for questions - previewed by them - all of  which
        except one were directed to Strieber.  It became clear that I was
        never  going  to get the time to speak I was expecting.  I  tried
        interrupting  a few times,  but after speaking only a few  words,
        the  hosts  moved on to something else.  Clearly,  some  kind  of
        "arrangement"  had  been made,  keeping my time to  the  absolute
        minimum,  probably  because they feared that Strieber might  walk
        off  the set.  One questioner asked if Strieber had attempted  to
        trap,  or  photograph the visitors.  Indeed he had,  he  replied,
        using   video  cameras,   still  cameras,   and  other   devices.
        Unfortunately, something always goes wrong with the attempt, such
        as  the  camera  batteries going dead;  "the  visitors"  seem  to
        possess  the  ability to thwart all attempts  to  document  their
        presence!  I  was dumbfounded by a question directed to me by co-
        host  Ross McGowen,  as he worked the audience:  "you DO  believe
        that men have landed on the moon,  don't you?" Apparently Whitley
        had  succeeded in "selling",  at least to the show's  staff,  his
        notion  that  to question his visions of "the  visitors"  was  as
        perversely  blind as those who insist that the space program is a
        fraud!  I responded that 99.9 percent of the scientific community
        do not accept accounts of the kind Strieber relates.

        During  the  commercial break before one of the  final  segments,
        Karen  dashed  out onto the set to ask Strieber if he wanted  his
        book to be "promo-ed".  "NO!",  he flatly replied.  I said that I
        would like to have MY book,  The UFO Verdict, "promo-ed". Whitley
        said,  still annoyed,  "Yes,  go promo HIS book!" This was  done,
        briefly.  In  the final fifteen seconds of the show,  Ross  asked
        Strieber  from across the room if he wanted to mention his  book.
        "NO!",  Whitley snarled,  then paused,  and sheepishly  muttered,
        "it's  Transformation."  Within  seconds of going  off  the  air,
        Strieber  had  left  the  studio.  The 'Prima  Donna'  was  still
        furious.

        In  the  final  analysis,  Strieber's visions of  "the  visitors"
        undoubtedly  have  more to do with religion and  psychology  than
        they do with anything extraterrestrial.  Strieber is far from the
        first  person in history to experience visions of bizarre beings,
        and then become transformed into a tireless evangelist seeking to
        convince  the  world  that they are  real.  Many  religions  were
        founded in precisely this manner;  indeed, the very titles he has
        chosen for these books about "the visitors" places them firmly in
        the  realm of religion.  There seems little room for  doubt  that
        Strieber firmly believes what he is saying. There is also not the
        slightest  bit of physical evidence that any of it is  true.  But
        truth  has never been a necessary element for making a nonfiction
        book a success, as we see from the 1987 success of "Communion" as
        a  #1 Best-Seller,  and "Transformation" now seems headed  toward
        similar success.  As skeptics,  this will not surprise us, but as
        citizens  concerned  about the future of education  and  rational
        thought, it gives us reasons for grave concern.
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "Fate" Replies to Electronic Publishing of Klass' "Crybaby"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 05:22:52 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Thanks to James Lippard for keeping things honest.

I don't know if "honest" or "dishonest" is the right term to use here.
I think that most observers do NOT appreciate how bewildering all this
was as it unfolded, with Rawlins sending out page after page of single-
spaced letters to all and sundry (with various addenda typed up and
down the sides), filled with venomous ad hominem attacks against the
various CSICOP persons. If there was a valid point anywhere in Rawlins'
ravings, it is visible only with the benefit of hindsight.
>
>Shame on Robert Sheaffer for posting only Klass' article, then asking
>"...In any case, Klass still has a letter dated  Dec.
>        1,  1981  from Mary Margaret Fuller (then Editor of  Fate)  which
>        gives as the excuse for not publishing "Crybaby" that "nothing in
>        your  manuscript refutes [Rawlins'] allegations." Again,  re-read
>        Klass' article, then you may be the judge of whether or not  THIS
>        particular excuse for refusing to publishing it is valid."
>
>How are we to know if we don't see the original article? (Does the bay
>area sceptics' BBS offer the FATE article for downloading?)


  Hey, Fate is (or until recently WAS) still selling the Rawlins'
  article. Shame on YOU for suggesting that we skeptics should
  violate their copyrights, and offer the public for free what they
  are within their rights to sell!



>
>I've read the Sceptical Inquirer on many occasions, finding it more
>enjoyable than Fate most of the time, but have often been struck by the
>sneering tone of some articles, at times feeling that the authors
>weren't beneath using personal innuendo when they couldn't find enough
>hard facts to support their case.
>
>Absent Rawlin's original article it's unclear whether all of Klass'
>material about Rawlin's (mis-) behavior while associated with CSICOP
>is relevant or an attempt to divert the issues. But certainly Scheaffer's
>addendum is little but an unabashed attempt to sway the jury by
>slurring the author --- even if true, the addendum is irrelevant and
>does little credit to the sceptic "cause".
>
What, it is some terrible thing to EXPOSE Fate's misrepresentation of
Klass' article? And to show the ridiculous lies they make up so as
to justify NOT presenting the 'other side' of a controversy that they
raised?

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 03:15:08 GMT
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 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
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When I said that there have been no UFO sightings wahtsoever, I guess I
should have added : "to the best of my knowledge"...I just wanted to give
any kind of inforamtion, which you might find useful.  I guess it's very
dangerous to generalize..

The thing is that UFO are indeed very big news in India, and I felt that I
would have heard atleast something, if at all anything did happen.  Kumar
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 06:17:11 GMT
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One thing to consider here is that besides differences in interpretation
and ability to communicate UFO reports, there may be real differences
between different areas in terms of volumes and types of sightings.
I see lot of evidence for "project-orientation" among the phenomena.
There is a high incidence of crop circles in England, boomerangs in
Belgium, and (perhaps) abductions in North America.   What I disagree
with is the implication that the UFO phenomena must observe some sort of
doctrine of "equal opportunity", and that if it isn't somehow randomly
scattered about the surface of the Earth, then the "extra" reports must
be the result of lies and hoaxes.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 18:01:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (!) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (!) writes:
>>
>>Now go ponder it again.  (Hint: if the nearest phone is 30km away,
>>on the other side of that mountain range, your local peasant isn't
>>real likely to make the call.)
>
>My reply is: what does the phone has to do with this? even if it is
>100Km away, you can always make a DELAYED reporting to media, just to
>register what you saw and when you saw, for this you don't have to
>prove what you saw (except for witnesses), even you guys with state of
>the art equipment and communications can't really prove anything!!

Okay, first of all, I don't think this discussion can be meaningful
until we agree on a definition of "Third World".  Despite that,
consider the following:

1. "There are no sightings in the Third World."
    This was your original assertion.  I don't see how anyone
    can prove or disprove this statement.

2. "There are no *reported* sightings in the Third World."
    This was my suggested modification to your original assertion.
    Now we have a claim which can be investigated (unless our
    definition of TW means "impoverished area without mass media
    facilities).  A thorough search of TW newspapers will either
    prove or disprove the claim.

3. "There are no *reported* sightings in the Third World
    of which I am aware."  This is my new and improved modification
    of your original assertion.

>The matter here is not to prove or disprove the UFO sightings but to
>discuss why there is such a variation in the distribution of UFO
>sightings in 3rd world and your world. The condition of weather and
>other factors (such as no gov. restrictions) go in FAVOR of most of
>the 3rd world places for reporting UFO sightings, but still we have
>nothing!!!!! This really AMAZES me.
>
>Note that UFO sighting report may not necessarily be made right away!!
>it can be done days or even weeks later...but even that has not
>happened in 3rd world in print or TV.

A report of a UFO sighting may not necessarily be made _at_all_,
because of economic, cultural and social factors.  My definition
of Third World would include "no TV".

A lack of reports does not necessarily mean a lack of sightings.

If you want to argue that the UFO phenomenon (and I don't think
anyone believes the _phenomenon_ doesn't exist) is restricted
to First World (whatever that is) countries, you haven't shown
us any evidence to support that contention.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!arizona.edu!hep7.physics.arizona.edu!wallin
From: [e-mail] (Tripp Wallin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 06:18:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:

|>
|> Orientation and spatial position were not factors at all.  It was the actual
|> contact between a piece of metal and the skull that consistently brought about
|> the change in reception, regardless of positioning and orientation.
|>
|> The phenomenon you're talking about is something totally seperate that can
|> even be made to happen concurrently with the above.

Wow you must have never taken a physics class in your life.
Lets start from the beginning......
You are a big receptor of electromagnetic waves due to the electolytic solution in your body called
blood. Metal is also a receptor of electromagnetic waves. Now wouldn't it make sense to you that
if you take one receptor and add another receptor to it you would get greater reception.

What I would suggest to you is to try this to test if your touching metal to your head theory is
correct:

stand an appreciable distance from your television and try touching a piece of metal to your head.
Try this repeated times at different positions near your television.

I think you will notice that as you move farther away from your TV touching metal to your head does
not change your reception. Maybe you'll come up with the reason that "Hey my stange power derived
from touching metal to my head gets weak if I get away from my subject!" Well no I'm afraid that one is wrong too. As you get further away from your subject the electromagnetic waves and you and your piece of metal don't interfere as much. I'm afraid your little observation was incorrect, though I will note that you did observe something and thought about it which very few people do these days. Most people follow the norm and believe what they are feed. Thats why I like this news group you people think abo




ut what is happening out there. Even if some of your assertions are kinda off.

                                           -Tripp

|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!eng.ufl.edu!creek.ugrad.ee.ufl.edu!cwb
From: [e-mail] (Charles Binko)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Men In Black Suits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 16:58:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Diskhog System)
Organization: UF EE Department (student)
Lines: 7


    Several years ago, I read a book that mentioned the phenomenon of MIBS (Men In Black Suits).  As I recall, people all over the country were being confronted by these men and then they would lose about a day or so where they would not remember anything.  Does anyone have any information about this?
    Also, I would appreciate the location of any archives relating to the subjects discussed on this board.

Thanks
Charles Binko
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 18:21:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>FYI Last year I offered email transcripts of the Pleiadian tapes entitled
>>Harmonics of Frequency Modulation and the Human DNA.  Over 135 net folks
>>requested copies.
>
>Two hours and fifteen minutes worth of suckers....
>==================================================
>                      ....................................
                       ted frank | [e-mail]

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

I get so sick of this kind of childish, mean, ego-masturbation!
If you don't like something, fine! Don't! But save your smart cracks
for your little friends and keep it out of our faces!

(flame mode off)

--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 18:09:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 65

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
>
>In article <1992May21.704.3486@channel1>, [e-mail] (eliot gelwan) writes...
>On 05-19-92 STEVE TIMPSON wrote:
>
>ST}        OK everybody and especially you paranoids out there (Gary Stollman
>ST}        are you listening).
>ST}
>ST}        I have a  watch  that  shows the current and future orbits of the
>ST}        planets and after setting  for  5/5/2000 it shows the planets are
>ST}        NOT,  let me repeat NOT aligned in any way, not even close.
>
>>(Steve, I have a bridge you might want to buy.) We're supposed to
>>take that as *proof*???!!!
>>
>>....eliot                                         |
>>Internet: [e-mail]             -*-
>>    RIME: ->CHANNEL [R/O okay]                   |
>
>        Well since I  am  an  amateur astronomer and since to date it has
>        proven to be accurate the answer is yes.  But since you appear to
>        be one of these people  who  would buy into anything that anybody
>        says without question then in your case NO.  Since at the time of
>        my original posting all I had was  my  watch I made the check and
>        posted  the  results.    Later  I  confirmed the  watch  with  an
>        ephemeras at home.  I also believe that someone  in this file has
>        already  pointed out via an ephemeras that there is no  alignment
>        but then this is probably not accurate either is it ELIOT.    How
>        can we trust an astronomical ephemeras
>
>
>        Steve Food_for_the_Greys


    During the planetary "lineup" in the 1980's sometime,
I took pen in hand and tried some math. The initial set of
equataions was rather messy, and my first attempt at a solution
failed. So I simplifed. First, assume all circular orbits. Then
I looked for relationships.

    Some relationships became apparent. No planetary alignment
is possible unless the outer planets are aligned. Since these
have the longest orbital periods, this is a constraint. So
multiply the orbital periods of the outer 3 or so planets together.

    The inner planets will align much more often, but I
did not determine how often. But unless they align with the
outer planets, alignment will not occur.

    I think I came up with an upper bound of the product
of all the orbital periods. Remove the assumption of circular
orbits and this might not be true.

    At any rate, for a reasonable alignment, there will be
a long long wait. I did not think that the planets were aligned
in the 1980`s either, not even a ragged line.

    BTW, we should be able to trust the math, it is only
logically consistant with itself. There is no guarentee that
the math will correspond with reality to any great degree.


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 17:10:47 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 18

I've been reading about UFOs lately, mostly the "government cover-up"
angle.  I don't know much about any of the current sighting cases or
anything.  So I was wondering if there are any current hot spots that
I can go and hang out at for a week or so and have a pretty good
chance of seeing a UFO.  Like Gulf Breeze or whatever.  I just wanna
go see for myself.  I've read a couple of reports about some Gulf
Breeze people trying to attract UFOs with lasers.  How regular are
these attempts?

Is there any place I can live for a week and have >50% chance of seeing
a UFO?

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!mcnc!borg!monet!davidson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intruders
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 17:41:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Perhaps INTRUDERS caused the L.A. riots...

Hey now, don't pull a Dan Quayle and blame the riots on a TV show!

:-)

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!news.hawaii.edu!hubble!kiernan
From: [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intruders
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 19:22:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>
>In a related topic, has anyone ever heard of an abduction case where an
>ultrasound was done prior to a baby being "removed". Pregnancy tests
>I have heard of, but not ultrasounds (which would be much better proof).
>

How about amniocentresis too? How would that turn out! I had never heard of
the abductions with the pregnancies, as depicted in "Intruders". Are
there any books where this kind of thing is described?

Elaine
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Interesting Klass Item
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 03:20:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 21


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Michael Corbin
 * Originally dated 05-26-92 20:16

UFO LANDS IN KLASS' BACKYARD

Just when Phil Klass thought he was making headway into exterminating UFO-
mania, it appears that it may have caught its "second-wind."  In this month's
Aviation Week and Space Technology, the magazine that Phil Klass is avionics
editor for, there appears a curious advertisement.  This full page ad shows the
infamous Daniel Fry UFO picture with a sub-caption that states:  ONE OF THE FEW
AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS WE HAVEN'T WORKED WITH.  YET.

It just goes to show you, Phil, if you can't beat 'em, maybe you ought to
consider joining 'em.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 19:56:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 67
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu

Hello Earth people

     I hope this title is right.  I too am Earth people...
I see a great division in this news group, why so much division?

The phenomenon of E.T. is global, wow.  It must be clear that it is
a true phenomena.  Has anyone considered the wide spread
implications of this phenomenon?  It may be a subconscious, a mass
subconscious desire to express something.  Is this mass desire to
express...... a valid consideration?

     Repression sometimes is the trigger.  The trigger to
expression of what is really at the core of the issue.

     At this time I wonder if anyone considers the possibility of
the GREY's being a dyeing race.  And let's suppose we, or our
benign government, that through our leadership, the choice has been
made to assist this race to survive?  And maybe this expression is
linked to our knowing that we too are a dying race, only not as far
as along?  And only through the synthesis of our races is survival
possible?

     And the other E.T.'s are only watching this great reunion?
The bringing back of what is the GREAT denial.   Not only is the
denial of nature a great threat to our survival, but the denial of
technology?  It may be we, as a human thing, are the key to the
survival of a Whole life wave of non-human forms.  The GREYS!  THEY
NEED US!  They are our Brothers and Sisters, just like the many
other human forms of the seven sisters, AND WE NEED THEM!  And the
OTHERS are waiting for the time when we see this and accept it as
truth.

     The GRAYS are the DENIED part of our selves that we have
pushed out into the unknown.  The possiblities of the human mind
are unexplored!

     If something is out there first we must clear this issue!  Do
we have a subconscious sense of denial of technology, or is it a
subconscious sense of denial of nature?  Tech demands logic,
nature demands intuition, which is best?  The battle rages on.
The battle of the GREY's and HUMAN's is synonymous, have we put our
battle outside ourself's?  Is this the great denial?  Is this why
we see the U.F.O.?
     The people of science are in such denial of U.F.O.'s there is
no place to turn for logic, I know, I am a student.  If a student
wants to learn something out of the HALLS OF ACADEMIA feel sorry
for that student!  This includes all aspects of PARANORMAL
activities.
The chance of linking any paranormal activity with research is out
of the realm of academic reality.
     Let's consider for a moment that all this U.F.O. stuff was a
product of the HUMAN mind.  What a possible resource, so many
ideas, so many theories.  Has anyone thought about this?  Not only
the thought of bending the space-time stuff, but the stuff about
communicating with the spirit world, the blend of science and
intuition?
     For all you reality, or should I say you're reality, people...
DON'T FLAME ME, I'M PRETTY GOOD AT MATH AND SCIENCE...
BUT I KNOW THERE'S SOMETHING MORE....
AND IT'S NOT LOGICAL....
*****************************************************************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
if you sign your name, you're committed to the TRUTH...........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%%%%%%%
MARK HOLLADAY
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!ulowell!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 11:33:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Mail to News Gateway
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>I am going to describe now the problems with my phone

Try comp.dcom.telecom.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Our father who art in heaven.. I sincerely pray that
 |warren@      SOMEBODY at this table will PAY for my SHREDDED WHAT and
/ nysernet.org ENGLISH MUFFIN.. and also leave a GENEROUS TIP...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ed Walters UFO-pics-only FAKE ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 20:21:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>I have a couple of UFO-fake black-and-white photos. If anyone is interested I
>would like
>to place these on ftp sites as GIF files, and track how far the rumor about
>these pictures will reach.
>It would be a nice social experiment in order to track how fake pictures are
>passed
>suddenly as original ones in UFO-circles.

>PS: Those 'pictures' are taken at my wife's summer house in Finland, I used an
>old
>lamp from the scary late fifties when futurism was in vogue.

Let me get this straight.  You faked some UFO photos, and you now want to
advertize them as real to the UFO community?  Let's take the Trindade
photos as an example.  Not only are the photos available as GIFs, but
there is a lot of supporting documentation, witnesses' interviews and
published data about them.  Are you going to fabricate the background
for your photos as well?  A complete story?

Hmmmm.  Maybe you should read up on the UFO literature a bit more.

(And for gosh sake, DON'T start out by telling people you're going to
fake a UFO hoax!)

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 21:00:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in:
 ...
|>     Your primary work is with the self.
 ...

This one's a real let down after the one about the controllers lusting
after the beautiful daughters of earth.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 07:06:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 16

In a message to All <24 May 92 18:06> Gary Stollman wrote:

 GS>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????

I believe EVERY WORD, and I'm delighted to hear about Joan!

When's the date?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (The Cookster!)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: What happened to the white spot in W.Strieber's brain?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 14:24:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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    Oh, and don't forget, you can call Whitley Streiber's 1-900
    number too!

    Oh, farging joy!

    He's a FARCE. Ask Budd Hopkins about Whitley farging Streiber.
    He'll give you an earful.

    Ever wonder why Communion came out before Intruders? No coincidence
    kids.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
 Peter R. Cook            Mystic Powers new EP - Life in the Fast Lane
 Digital Equipment Corp.    now available. Inquire within.

                 "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
                  Welcome to the 90's where the government's
  (___)              your mother!" - Scatterbrain
    U
 Flames not welcome. Serious inquires only. Opinions are mine, all mine!
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 May 92 14:42:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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[e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
...
>   Anyway I have
> this question if you know the greys.
> Why does it take three hours of boiling in water to get that
> tough leather skin off? I mean, is there a faster method?

Whatfor you want to remove the skin? That's where all the vitamins
and minerals are!

(Granted, it _can_ be a bit tough at times, in which case I would
recommend marinating in a mixture of olive oil, salt, garlic, and
cayanne pepper (to taste) for a few hours prior to cooking. Bon Apetite!)

Craig
-- "Again," she said.             Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
-- "I'm afraid you've mistaken me       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  for someone else," the            Austin: [e-mail] --
--  bureaucrat said amiably.                        VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Aggelikh Karagounaki 403)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: What about Uri Geller?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 13:25:32 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Crete GREECE
Lines: 3


 Does anybody remember what happened to Uri Geller?
Ya know, the one that used to bend spoons by thought etc.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!uchinews!ellis!thf2
From: [e-mail] (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 21:20:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10295 alt.alien.visitors:6025 sci.skeptic:24524

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>FYI Last year I offered email transcripts of the Pleiadian tapes entitled
>>>Harmonics of Frequency Modulation and the Human DNA.  Over 135 net folks
>>>requested copies.
>>
>>Two hours and fifteen minutes worth of suckers....
>
>I get so sick of this kind of childish, mean, ego-masturbation!
>If you don't like something, fine! Don't! But save your smart cracks
>for your little friends and keep it out of our faces!

You sound upset because you weren't one of the beautiful daughters of
the earth that the Pleiadian controllers were lusting after.

If Don Showen doesn't want skeptical comments, he shouldn't post his
fraudulence to sci.skeptic.
--
                      ....................................
                      ted frank | [e-mail]
                      the university of chicago law school
                      spending  warm  summer days  indoors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 22:26:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
>
>Here's a really dumb, obvious question I've always
>wanted to ask, after years of searching the skies unsucessfully
>for ufo's:
>    OK. People see ufo's all the time, and take pictures of them, etc.
>Ufo's are seen as lights moving around un the sky.
>These aliens have been able to navigate here through incomprehensible
>distances in space and/or time, so, WHY do they fly with their lights
>on? I mean, what do they need the lights for?? They can't need them

I think you are assuming that the "lights" would serve the
same purpose as say, landing lights on a conventional aircraft.
The source of the "light" could be many things, such as
the byproduct of the propulsion system, or ionized gases (way
out of my depth here), or something really dumb, like "they"
don't realize human eyes can see what we call the visible spectrum.

>to see where they're going. And if their ships, in the course  of
>operating, emit light, can't they cloak the light (like the Klingons).

I think you mean the Romulans.  If I'm wrong about this, I guess
I'm not such a nerd after all! :-)

>    So, either they don't CARE if we see them, or they WANT us to
>see them, 'cause if they wanted to keep their existence a secret they
>would remain invisible I would think! (I mean, if they are smart
>enough to get here, they must be smart enough to remain completely
>hidden from us).

"They" may be technically advanced, but not possess the super-intelligence
we generally assume.  The term "idiots savants" comes to mind.  Some
of the reports we've heard here indicate some really dumb behavior,
like trying to obtain a sperm sample from an abductee who had had a
vasectomy.

>    So why don't they stop foolin' around and land already!!

Perhaps "they" don't have the answer to Life, the Universe and
Everything that we seem to expect of them.  Perhaps "they" are
too embarassed by our expectations.

Either UFOs represent alien technology, or they don't.  Useless
speculation about motives--why this and why that--are, well,
useless, IMHO.

If UFOs represent ET technology, (and the jury is definitely still
out as far as I'm concerned), I don't think they are as advanced
as we give them credit for--certainly not thousands and thousands
of years; more like a few hundred at best.  Just some useless
speculation of my own.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
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From: [e-mail] (They're Hereeeee!!)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 15:21:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 64
Originator: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Gary "the loon" Stollman) says:


>For all of you out there who doubt what I have said, this should convince
>you finally...When I got out of the mental hospital with the help of my
               -------------------------------------

This line alone makes any shred of belief cease to exist.

>with the help of my girlfriend Joan in Tallahasse

Cool.  A nuthouse break.  What did she do, slip a dip stick in with
a pot roast?

>she told me something which convinced ME that things were completely out
>of this world!!!                                          --------------
 -------------

Sounds like a line for a new "fruity" cereal.

>She had to take cabs
>around town there while I was stuck in the hospital because she doesn't
>drive...She said that she walked to the Tallahassee Mall, and when she was
>planning on coming home, she went to the car wash place across the
>street...

Now why praytell, if your girlfriend always uses a cab, would she go over
to a Car Wash?!?!?!  What, does she stand under the buffer and make
up for lost time from you or what?
Why wouldn't she have called a cab from the mall?
Or, did some "unseen force" guide her mysteriously over to a car wash?

>The girl at the carwash place told her, without her having asked
>first, that a cab was on the way to pick her up...When the cab arrived,
>Joan got in, though very suspicious, and was driven back to my
 -----------------------------------

Ever see those movies, where you know something is going to happen
because it is so painfully obvious, yet the person goes and does it
anyway?

>apartment...On the way, whe said the CAB DRIVER repeated EVERY WORD we had
>said to each other ON THE PHONE!!!  She said it involved conversations at
>the hospital at that time, and even OTHER TIMES in the past!!!  She said
>he repeated it WORD FOR WORD, like a tape recorder!!!

Was it live, or Memorex?

>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????
>                Gary

Yah.  About 99% of the population of the earth.  Whoops, make that 100%.
That guy with the world will end tomorrow sign just got hit by a truck.

> This is from
>     [e-mail]
>who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet

Gee Gary, if these aliens posess the abilities you say they do, then
why is it that you think bluemoon.rn.com is safe?  Why....they could be
attempting to controll you through your monitor right now!


(errie '50's sci-fi music, as the picture fades.....)
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From: [e-mail] (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 14:47:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Lines: 14

[e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

>In a message to All <24 May 92 18:06> Gary Stollman wrote:

> GS>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????

    I believe you.

    Do you reckon we could go on a double date, like you and Joan
    me and her clone??

I've got two sets of parents too, I know what sort of hassles you have

hook.
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From: [e-mail] (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 14:58:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Lines: 27

[e-mail] (Robert J. Hall) writes:


>I have yet to see a meaningful explanation as to why a supposedly advanced
>civilization would want or need to bring a primitive human on their vessel,
>employ the psychological technique of hypnosis (that is probably unique to
>human kind) to erase knowledge of the interaction, then release these persons
>to possibly recover their memory of the event.

>Nanorobots would be a far more efficient method of completely and irrevoc-
>ably removing all short term memories after a supposed interaction.

>**** WHY WOULD 'THEY' NEED TO ABDUCT AND HYPNOTIZE PEOPLE ??? ***

You ever thought that they may have DEVELOPED TECHNOLOGY ALONG DIFFERENT
F**KING LINES?????
Take a look at the different technologies developed by Germany and the allied
forces from about 1935 till the end of WWII.

    These creatures are _ALIEN_, they think different to us, their
environment demands different things from them.
Nanorobots are a direct derivative from silicon chip technology, what if
these aliens bypassed that all together??

think

hook
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From: [e-mail] (John Boerp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 10:22:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (John News)
Organization: Yoyodyne Programming Systems,  midget headquarters, Germany
Lines: 14

[e-mail] writes:

>If there are SOOO many alien civilizations out there, WHY OH WHY WON'T
>THEY LAND IN A MAJOR CITY DURING DAYLIGHT SO THE REST OF US POOR MORTALS
>CAN MEET THEM?!
>If these civilisations are so keen to save us all from complete
>destruction, why not do it openly?

Why should anybody prevent mankind from self-destruction? To give
us as chance to mess up the whole milky-way, or what ?!

--
John Boerp                        (boerp@[midget|mutant].saar.de)
Old Mutant Road                             YoYoDyne Propulsion Systems
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From: [e-mail] (Mako)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze UFO on TV
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 16:10:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Anna Anderson) writes:

> Houston TV station KHOU has been doing nightly specials on the
> news all this week as part of the "Intruders" special.

> They sent a camera crew to Gulf Breeze, Florida to interview the
> locals. However they got more than they hoped for, as several times
> this week they captured a UFO on video tape, and broadcasted it to the
> Houston area.

> One night it showed the crowd there flashing a large spotlight at the
> UFO, and cheers as it responded with flashes. The UFO was reported to
> be in the restricted air space of the huge Air Force base near Pensacola.
> It was said to be verified that no military or commercial aircraft
> were in the area at the time, and no radar contact made.

> The news report said that the Jet Propulsion Lab in California asked
> for and were given the tapes for study.

> Anna

I take it that Gulf Breeze, Florida, has a history of sightings.  This is
a fascinating story.  Can anyone tell me more about this?  Feel free to
reply via e-mail...

Mako

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julian Hayashi-Marsano/A Festive Latin with Warm Asiatic Tendencies       PF
e-mail: [e-mail]                                          RULES
"Why, no, I consider myself to have won a victory for the comic mews..."E.M.F.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 17:02:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <11805@ntdd>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10297 alt.alien.visitors:6032 sci.skeptic:24529

In article <11805@ntdd> [e-mail] (Rolf Meier) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise) writes:
>
>>I get so sick of this kind of childish, mean, ego-masturbation!
>>If you don't like something, fine! Don't! But save your smart cracks
>>for your little friends and keep it out of our faces!
>
>Actually, many of us like the stuff about the Pleiadians.  It's just
>that it is a lot of crap, not worthy of any serious consideration
>whatsoever.  This does not mean, however, that it lacks humor.
>___________________________________________________________________
>Rolf Meier                    Mitel Corporation

Rolf, you mis read me. The reason I underlined the previous posters
comment was because he was calling names at the people posting
things like the Pleidian Transcripts. I enjoy reading them too.
I just get so angry when people get so self-righteous and start
swearing at posters who put controversial material on the board.
We're on the same side here.


--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!well!apple!apple.com!hammaker
From: [e-mail] (Rebecca A. Hammaker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO sightings in SF Bay Area
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 17:42:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: ba
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 7

Has anybody heard about any UFO sightings
in the SF Bay area?
Is there any place that might have information
or records of such things?

Thanks,
Becky
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 18:07:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>When I said that there have been no UFO sightings wahtsoever, I guess I
>should have added : "to the best of my knowledge"...I just wanted to give
>any kind of inforamtion, which you might find useful.  I guess it's very
>dangerous to generalize..
>
>The thing is that UFO are indeed very big news in India, and I felt that I
>would have heard atleast something, if at all anything did happen.  Kumar

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I am honestly confused by
your last statement above.  Why do you say "UFO are indeed
very big news in India" if there are no sightings reported?

In an earlier post, I tried to draw a distinction between two
statements:

      1. There are no UFO sightings in the Third World.
      2. There are no *reported* UFO sightings in the Third World.

I now realize that I have committed Fallacy of Ambiguity #3(*).
By stressing the word "reported", statement 2 takes on the
underlying assumption that there are indeed sightings.  "Of course
there a UFO sightings, they are just not _reported_ for some
reason" was not the meaning I intended to convey.  Perhaps I should
have written:

      2. There are no UFO sightings reported in the Third World.

I hope this removes the ambiguity, and I apologize for the confusion.

I will offer one more bit of wild speculation on this topic.
I realize I'm skating perilously on the thin ice of "begging the
question", but if one hypothesis for the UFO phenomenon is
"alien visitors are studying terrestrial technology", then
the "fact" that UFOs are not seen in the Third World is consistent
with that hypothesis; the aliens are going to hang out where
the technology is (i.e., developed countries but not Third World).

Unlike my frequent ravings in rec.motorcycles, this article is
intended to be a sober attempt at critical thinking.  Any constructive
criticism pointing out a faulty premise or unsupported conclusion
will be appreciated.  If you are amused by my sophmoric musings,
please indicate where I have erred.

(*) Fallacies of Ambiguity:
    3.  Accent.  Stressing a word in a sentence which thereby changes
        the meaning.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: first contact in '94
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 18:16:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992May26.160300.12746@anasaz>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 21

In article <1992May26.160300.12746@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S0737338) writes:
>u->
>->  No, I say first contact will be made in 94' in Idaho, moscow Idaho(vich).
>
>WRONG Buba.  There is NO SUCH THING as Idaho.  See debate in alt.discrimination.
>Posters there have concluded anyone who believes in Idaho is some kind of a
>nut case.  UFOs OK but cut out this Idaho crap.

But wait?? I remember -being- in Idaho... I stopped at McDonalds for
lunch??? Were these planted memories? Perhaps I was abducted...

>--
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <683k+7#[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 18:11:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6036 sci.physics:21554 sci.skeptic:24540

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>
-->whole buncha stuff omitted<---
>
>As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
>substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
>particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation

Generally, a conductor is a material with electrons in the conduction
band. The definition is quite clear, and a good test of conductivity
can be done with an ohmmeter. Metals are common conductors. None of
the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
definition. I am saying that the above statement is demonstratable false.
Correction, the antenna elements are the only items in the list above
that will conduct. Further information can be found in the first chapter
of most introductary electronics books. They explain what conductors
are as a prelude to defining semiconductors.

>of these conductors, waves of different frequency interfere in various ways.

>It is a fairly common effect that moving a TV, furniture, or even having
>someone stand near the TV (due to the electrolytic solution we call blood)
>can effect reception.

Try again. What we have is stray capacitance detuning loosly coupled
resonant circuits. This was common in older designs. There are many
other effects that can affect ones picture after moving a set. None
of these effects are in any way due to the ionic content of the cells/
blood.

>I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
>physicists who were interested in this subject, instead of just being
>amazed by a few newspaper articles or an episode of "That's Incredible".

I'd encourage those interested to study the electronics first.

>                    - Jeff

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!caen!destroyer!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intruders
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 01:26:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
|> >
|> >In a related topic, has anyone ever heard of an abduction case where an
|> >ultrasound was done prior to a baby being "removed". Pregnancy tests
|> >I have heard of, but not ultrasounds (which would be much better proof).
|> >
|>
|> How about amniocentresis too? How would that turn out! I had never heard of
|> the abductions with the pregnancies, as depicted in "Intruders". Are
|> there any books where this kind of thing is described?
|>

You could try "Intruders" (the book) by Budd Hopkins.




|> Elaine
|> [e-mail]
|>

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Philippe Schnoebelen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 3rd world UFOs :-) [was Re: 3rd world UFOs? ]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 15:03:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Institut Imag, Grenoble, France
Lines: 100
Nntp-Posting-Host: cassiopee

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert R.
Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:

me>>This is the kind of messages that make a.a.v. truly funny.

>I see no reason to be abusive, asshole.

Please, do not think that I despise truly funny things ! (or assholes like
myself.) I love good humorists.


>The original poster stated that there are no UFO sightings in the
>third world, and that the third world has clear skies 99.99% of
>the time.  Why do you ignore _this_ blatant, unsupported speculation,
>yet flame me for pointing out that a lack of reports does not
>necessarily mean a lack of sightings?

I guess I ignored the insanity in his preposterous claim because I'm
"prejudiced" (for lack of a better terminology. I don't know the number of
the corresponding Logical Fallacy.)


>You have committed Logical Fallacy Number Seven

I score one.


>Unless the Indian gentleman has worked as a fact checker for a
>major metropolitan newspaper (or has similar expertise), I contend
>that his anecdotal account is insufficient to resolve the question
>of whether UFO sightings (if they occur) are reported.

That's true. We cannot rely on his testimony. I would be tempted to say
that I heard of no abduction case here in France, but I am not a
fact-checker. I am just addicted to armchair speculation.


>2. For the _third_ time, this discussion is pointless until we
>   agree on a definition of "Third World".  I am reluctant to
>   characterize India as such.

Yes, but this is not the point I was addressing.

I was just wondering if we could spin speculative "may-be-so" theories as
fast as general observations from everyday-life were getting in the way.


>3. I made a perfectly reasonable suggestion about how the
>   claim might be investigated.

Yes, but I would not say it is so reasonable. After all, investigations are
expensive and a good researcher does a careful selection of what topics are
worth investigating. [Now, if you were just theorizing about possible
investigations, and did not really intend on having somebody embark on it,
then I withdraw my objection :-]


>4. I made no speculation other than pointing out that there may be
>   _reasons_ why sightings (_if_ they occur) may not be reported.

I thought you were speculating because I thought that these reasons where
pure speculations. I owe you an apology for this mistake.


me>>PS: I have a serious question for him: do Indian kids sometimes report
me>>receiving presents brought by some big white-bearded man with a fancy red
me>>suit and big black boots ? or do they not ?
>
>Very clever.  I would guess that Indian children do not report
>sightings of Santa Claus, probably because Santa Claus does not exist.
>Therefore, you want us to reason that Indians do not report sightings
>of UFOs, because UFOs do not exist.

Actually that was not my point.  Indeed, Santa Claus could exist and Indian
children explain how they got their Xmas gifts in a weird (I mean "even
weirder" :-) way.

I wanted you (all of you a.a.v. fans) to reason that the Santa Claus story
is a cultural phenomenon that explains how Western kids interpret some
strange things they see. So that maybe the "saucers as a cultural
phenomenon" could explain the (supposed) preeminence of saucer sightings in
the West.

Next time I will state my points with much more precision.


>I think this would be Logical
>Fallacy Number Nine:

I score two. (Or maybe you score one too :-)


Well, much thanks for your answer. My message was not worth such a serious
point-by-point analysis. I am truly ashamed of taking so much of your time.
Please, tell me that all this was tongue-in-check. I would feel so much
relieved. You can use email if you do not want to spoil the fun to the net.

Kind regards,

--Philippe
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 02:16:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:
> Hello Earth people
>
>      I hope this title is right.  I too am Earth people...
> I see a great division in this news group, why so much division?

Well, it's so much easier than multiplication. Anyway I have
this question if you know the greys.
Why does it take three hours of boiling in water to get that
tough leather skin off? I mean, is there a faster method?

Thanks
Path: ns-mx!uunet!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: So what happened with the laser? (was RE: FOX show)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 01:26:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregory M.
Henzie) says:
>What purpose would shooting it down serve?  There have been no formal
>hostilities, except those reported during abductions, on the part of
>any UFOs [assuming they exist, which seems to me to be probable].  And
>although I don't condone it, it has only been limited to individuals..
>

That's easy for you to say.  YOU haven't been abducted.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 01:28:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 2

Try Belgium.  They've been having quite a bit of fun with UFO's, and the
government isn't trying to hide anything either.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!europa.asd.contel.com!uunet!bcstec!hall
From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Summary: Aliens chew cud and die!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 16:56:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle
Lines: 65



 > An observation here would be that while we can see them on the
 > radar screens, we can't do a whole heck of a lot about them.

My point was that if they can be seen on radar, they made the decision
to do so.

 > If they can get around with impunity, why hide?  If people are ridiculed
 > for speaking out, and no one believes them, why hide?

Here you are assuming that the Aliens want to stay hidden, yet they 'reveal'
themselves to a (possibly) randomly selected group. My point again is that
they have the option of remaining hidden and chose not to do so.

 > If they don't use nanotechnology, they likely have a reason.  In fact,
 > I haven't see us come up with a rational view of its utilization, yet.

This is circular reasoning. They undoubtedly have access to technology that
allows them to do a more thorough job of removing recent memories than is
available through crude hypnosis.

 > What I want to know is just how these minor molecular nanobots are going
 > to store their programming...

There is no absolute rule that states that the nanorobots need to store
instructions for every task they will perform. They can just as easily be
programmed to do a simple task by a somewhat larger 'nanorobotic server'.
This same cell-sized server can also provide energy to the nanorobots, and
self-repair capability.

 > Personally, I think it's more likely that we'll see bioengineering take the
 > lead in developing means to make these changes...

Bioengineering is a form of nanotechnology. In the broadest sense,
nanotechnology is engineering on the nanometer scale.

 > Besides that, the abductors are described as having quite advanced means
 > of manipulating the human organism via humdrum things as electric shock...

Sarcasm? :-o

 >> **** WHY WOULD 'THEY' NEED TO ABDUCT AND HYPNOTIZE PEOPLE ??? ***
 > What if that's the most simple and practical way to do it?

More circular reasoning.

 > Why would we need to purchase, groom and train dogs for competitive reasons?
 > We certainly have motivations that in the eyes of other countries look
 > bizarre...  while others have motivations that to us look equally strange.

 > Why would these presumed abductors act by any rationale that was developed
 > by us?  For all we know, we could be cattle.  Do you ponder how a cow
 > chews its cud?  Does it wonder why some of us don't eat its flesh on
 > Friday and some do?

Fair enough. I can think of any number of rationalizations as to why an
alien race would perform these actions. (Ex: The aliens are actually pets
retained by a vastly more intelligent race. The somewhat stupid pet aliens
are sometimes allowed to visit Earth to 'play' with the equally stupid
humans. ;-)
--
--
  Robert J. Hall
  Systems Analyst, Boeing Computer Services
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!noao!arizona.edu!hep7.physics.arizona.edu!nelson
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 19:44:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
|> >
|> >As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
|> >substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
|> >particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
|>
|>                                                       ...... None of
|> the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
|> definition. I am saying that the above statement is demonstratable false.

Ok, pick up two electrodes, one in each hand ...
Maybe conductance is a poor choice of words, varying dielectric constansts might
be more applicable.  Saying conductance was something I felt more people reading
this board would have a physical grasp of.

The point of my article was not the itemization of what effects TV reception,
it was stating simply that people HAVE studied these phenomena seriously,
and the should be listened to, not televangelical-like fame seekers.

|> >It is a fairly common effect that moving a TV, furniture, or even having
|> >someone stand near the TV ...

|> Try again. What we have is stray capacitance detuning loosly coupled
|> resonant circuits.

Obviously, that's clear, but what about the reception?
:)
I'm sure there is at least one person out of the hundreds reading this
group that understands that statement.  Ou, nope, they got him, never mind.

|>                                                           .... None
|> of these effects are in any way due to the ionic content of the cells/
|> blood.

So your saying the human body does not interact with EM-wave to any
extent?  I happen to know that you can pick up a human body of extremely
shortwave radar (10 cm wl or so).

|> >I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
|> >physicists...
|>
|> I'd encourage those interested to study the electronics first.

Physicists like to believe that nearly everything falls under physics.

                    - Jeff
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Signal to Noise Ratio
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 05:40:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 34
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu



                     A RESEARCH POSSIBILITY

     Has anyone out there thought about bringing the channelers
together with scientific researchers?

     I am a student of physics, the reason for majoring in this
field is to do just this.  I have studied metaphysics since 1973.
You could say I have a degree in it, only no University will give
one.  I have studied under two teachers who have Ph.D's.  These
teachers are well accepted in the professional world.  Anyway, this
is where I have gotten my training in metaphysics.
     In 1990 I decided I wanted to bring metaphysics and physics
together somehow, so I enrolled in college.  UFO studies have begun
to  emerge as a area of interest to everyone.   Since this time,
1990, I have encountered some interesting work being done with
channeling that is of a somewhat scientific nature.  These friends
are doing work with structures similar to pyramids, much more
complex, but similar.  They channel for the Ashtar Command.  I know
some of you really don't like this stuff but open your minds!  Some
of the information is scientifically valid!
     Yes, I may be biased towards the metaphysical side, this is
because at an early age I had experiences too.  I am a good physics
student, I follow the scientific method.  I want to measure and
analyze the data.

     The point is, is anyone doing this kind of research?


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
dumb stuff here@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[e-mail] ===============>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Signal to Noise Ratio
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 07:04:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
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               MULTI-DIMENSIONAL SPACE TIME TRAVEL

Referencing Bruce L. Cathie:

     "The only way to traverse the vast distances of space is to
possess the means of manipulating, or altering, the very structure
of space itself; altering the space-time geometric matrix, which to
us provides the illusion of form and distance.  The method of
achieving this lies in the alteration of frequencies controlling
the matter-antimatter cycles which govern our awareness, or
perception, of position in the space-time structure.  Time itself
is a geometric, just as Einstein postulated; if time can be
altered, then the whole universe is waiting for us to come and
explore its nooks and crannies.
     In the blink of an eye we could cross colossal distances: for
distance is an illusion.  The only thing that keeps places apart in
space is time.  If it were possible to move from one position to
another in space, in an infinitely small amount of time , or "zero
time", then both positions would coexist, according to our
awareness.  By speeding up the geometric of time we will be able to
bring distant places within close proximity.  This is the secret of
UFO's - they travel by means of altering the spatial dimensions
around them and repositioning in space-time."

     I think that due to the block wall phenomena that areas of the
Earth's magnetic field contain vortexes' (sp) which trap very small
black holes, or worm holes, which can be used for just this
purpose.  And maybe this can be modeled in the lab to reproduce at
will.  And if so, we will have instant travel to anywhere!  Just
how do you navigate?........

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ more dumb stuff @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
================>                 <===============================
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!pbhya!whheydt
From: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 21:20:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6046 sci.physics:21574 sci.skeptic:24573

In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
> >
> -->whole buncha stuff omitted<---
> >
> >As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
> >substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
> >particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
>
> Generally, a conductor is a material with electrons in the conduction
> band. The definition is quite clear, and a good test of conductivity
> can be done with an ohmmeter. Metals are common conductors. None of
> the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
> definition.

Careful, there . . .

Most of the hman body is salty water--and that conducts just fine.
That it's wrapped up in dry skin may be what confused you--but then,
most wires you find have insulation around them, too, and no one
suggests that clipping to ohmmeter leads to the insulation is any way
to test the conductance of a wire.  (Back when Ben Franklin and I were
is school together, the impedance of the human body--assuming dry
skin--was given as 100 KOhms.  Compared to the input impedance on a
MOSFET, that *IS* a good conductor. . .)

    --Hal
--
=======================================================================
Hal Heydt                    |    Vegetarians eat vegetables.
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |
510-823-5447                 |    I'm a Humanitarian.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!polyp!glarson
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 07:56:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of Minnesota CIS
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: polyp.micro.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Juhana Hakum{ki) writes:
>Any knowledge on 3rd world UFO observations?
>So far it would seem they're a phenomenon of the delevoped world.
>A qualitative/quantitative difference would certainly raise questions.

The number of UFO reports would seem to be a drop in the bucket of
all UFO observations ANYWHERE in the world.  I know of several people
who have seen UFOs, even Close Encounters, and never did any of them
come even close to wanting to report the sighting.  It would appear
that one needs an incentive to do so.   Some possible reasons that
I can think of would be:  1. Belief that it's your patriotic duty,
that for some reason the government would want to know about this.
2.  Understanding the UFO orgnizations could make good use of this
information, and feeling the desire to help gather facts.
3.  For sensationalism - to see if you can get on the news.

Now, since the government has plainly stated that they don't believe
in visitors from space, then anyone who understands the government would
certainly not want to make a report to them.  Likewise, since much
of the media has made it clear that the subject of UFOs is good only for
laughs, what would be the purpose of reporting a sighting to them?
My own incentive for reporting would come from #2 above.  How many other
people are familiar with a local UFO organization?  Not very many.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!polyp!glarson
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black Suits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 08:11:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Organization: University of Minnesota CIS
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: polyp.micro.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Binko) writes:
>
>    Several years ago, I read a book that mentioned the phenomenon of MIBS (Men In Black Suits).  As I recall, people all over the country were being confronted by these men and then they would lose about a day or so where they would not remember anything.  Does anyone have any information about this?
>    Also, I would appreciate the location of any archives relating to the subjects discussed on this board.
>
>Thanks
>Charles Binko
>[e-mail]

At ftp.uiowa.edu you can get excerpts from Paranet.   I believe that
phoenix.oulu.fi has pictures.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Doug.Morrow
From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, Please Save Us From Ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 22:33:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
Lines: 14

Dear Mako, heh, heh, heh...

I can guarantee that I'm no red haired beauty, and I agree that
Raving New Agers need a place all their own, but I think that
Logical, Reasonable and rational arguements can be made supporting
the "No Whitehouse Lawn landing" position.

Specifically, tho, it saddens me to see people taking up sides so
gleefully and taking shots at those idiots on the other side. Maybe
Eros is right; ALL Earthlings ARE IDIOTS.
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Doug.Morrow
From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Phil Klass - Religious Fanatic?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 21:53:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
Lines: 23

Robert,

Aside from what you and Phil have a right to dismiss, aren't you
even alittle bit interested in watching the birth of (at the least)
a new religion right before your eyes?  Isn't it fascinating to be
in the middle of phenomena (socialogically speaking, of course) as
it gains momentum, and to be capable, if not willing, of charting
its growth?

As far as dismissing people who claim to have had "weird"
experiences, I can understand your reluctance to take them
seriously.  IF any part of what they say is true, then it shoots
your worldview all to hell. So it may simply be easier to lump
everyone who as a "non-normal" experience in with the flat earthers
than to think through the whole phenomena.

Tata for now....

                   Doug Morrow
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Doug.Morrow
From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Oh, Please Save Us From Ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 May 92 22:11:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
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Mike, Oh Mike,

They don't need to land anywhere, do they.  In 1947 or 48 a study
was done that indicated that less than 5% of the American population
believed that we were being visited by little green (actually, more
of a gray-green, I guess) aliens.  In 1990, over 60% believe in
them. At this rate, they'll have most of us believing in them by
2010 without having to land anywhere publically.

Seriously, IF they is somebody real, and interested in affecting us
culturally, the best way of doing it is exactly as has been reported
over the last 40 years.  Intermitent reinforcement is the strongest
method of conditioning a subject.
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO Travel Fantasy...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 10:38:35 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 39
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu



                   FANTASTIC HOLE MAKING IDEA

     I have no validity to make these statements, it is a practice
in a mind thought experiment.

     If nucleons are bonded together by some force, what is it?  Is
that force a small black hole?  If it is then a nuclear explosion
would open a larger one.  Maybe to hold this hole open the
explosion must be done at a site which has enough magnetism to hold
it open?  Maybe this is why the tests done today are at
electromagnetic grid sites?  The resent China test may be an
example of this.  They wanted a site of their own.
     I mean a site where the nucleon holding force, after being
blasted open, can be held open by the magnetic field of the Earth.
In other words, the force which holds the nucleon together is a
very small black hole, when the nucleon is blown apart it exposes
this black hole.  When many are blown apart the black hole is
larger.  But it still is a small hole compared to the universal
holes.  This hole will dissipate if it can not be held open.  When
a nuclear bomb goes off a hole about the size of a house is
created.  It will dissipate if not held open.
     The  earth provides magnetic grid sites which provide the
proper field strength to hold open this field.  This is why many
tests have been done at magnetic grid sites.  China just figured
this out and this is why such a strong test was done there.  One
big hole!
     Maybe this is why UFO's are so into nuclear sites.  Our way of
hole blasting may be too violent, maybe they have a more peaceful
means of opening holes.  Holes to travel though...

never mind........

remember, this is just fantasy, or a fantastic thought experiment!
Flamers please have mercy!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ really dumb stuff @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@<=========================>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.med
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 14:42:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6053 sci.med:27289

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>Also, if they don't wish humans to remember abductions (just
>playing along for a sec.) then _why_ don't they use a general
>anesthetic of some sort? I don't think there's a hypnotic regression
>technique in the world that would recover memories from _that_...

That's dead wrong.  I remember everything that went on both of the times
I was under general anesthetic, including both the weird "dreams" and the
doctor's conversations.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: First contact in '95 (was: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 15:06:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>Why they don't make contact:
>Maybe they're trying the best they can ... if they even exist.

In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>Right, they have the capability to abduct people right and left,
>travel (seemingly) great distances, and do all sort of incredible
>things, and they cannot figure out how to say "We are here".  This I
>find beyond belief.

Definitive contact will be made in 1995.  I won't justify or elaborate on that
assertion.  Just remember me in '95 so that I can become rich and famous. >:)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 22:41:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1992May26.032733.15989@anasaz>
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 28


You can see UFOs *anywhere*, if you have enough faith! Just drive to a
nice, deserted spot on a dark night, and look up. If you see something
in the sky that you can't identify, then *you* are among that select few. Be
careful not to try *too* hard to identify the object, or else you
may succeed.

A word to the wise: afterwards, make up lots of new details when you
tell about your sighting, and exaggerate a lot. That will reduce
the danger that some uncaring skeptic might someday take your lovely
UFO sighting away from you.

If this doesn't work, then go into a dark room at night. Light a candle,
stand in front of a mirror, and begin chanting, "I believe in Whitley
Strieber....."

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!noao!arizona.edu!hep7.physics.arizona.edu!nelson
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 23:01:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt) writes:
|> In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> > In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> > >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
|> > >
|> > -->whole buncha stuff omitted<---
|> > >
|> > >As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
|> > >substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
|> > >particularly your antenna are all conductors.  ....
|> >
|> > Generally, a conductor is a material with electrons in the conduction
|> > band. The definition is quite clear ...
|>
|> Careful, there . . .
|>
|> Most of the h[u]man body is salty water ...

For those of you who have no idea why this is being discussed, I'm sorry.
Looks like someone started cross posting a thread from alt.alien.visitors
into sci.physics.  Now I understand why I was getting responses from people
who actually knew something about science.

The thread started off with someone talking seriously about the reality
of the old Kirlian aura, that pesky EM field generated by the body
in some mysterious way.  Work was done some years ago to try to figure
out just what was being seen in those spookey images of hands with
lightning coming off of them.  Obviously, all the work in the area showed
that the field was produced by normal causes such as varying conductance
of the skin, static electricity, and muscle actions.

I am a mere Physics undergrad, who hasn't taken the "advanced" EM course;
some years ago I did here a talk by someone about work done in the 70s
on this topic.  I simply did my best to explain why someone was seeing
reception changes when they stood by their TV set and held an antenna
near their head.

I know from personal experience that the position of people and other
objects around TV sets does affect reception, and obviously it has
to do with how the EM waves interact with these objects.

I just hope none of my professors say my lame attempt at explaining
just what this interaction was...

                - Jeff
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!bu.edu!transfer!m2c!nic.umass.edu!usenet
From: [e-mail] (S0737338)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: first contact in '94
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 15:53:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20


  No, I say first contact will be made in 94' in Idaho, moscow Idaho(vich).
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <s=[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 23:03:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>|> >
>|> >As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
>|> >substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
>|> >particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
>|>
>|>                                                       ...... None of
>|> the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
>|> definition. I am saying that the above statement is demonstratable false.
>
>Ok, pick up two electrodes, one in each hand ...
>Maybe conductance is a poor choice of words, varying dielectric constansts
>might be more applicable.  Saying conductance was something I felt more people

No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.
Neither are wood or walls. And I also see ethical problems in stating
things you know to be untrue because you think the target audiance will be
unaware of the deception. If the truth (as you know it) cannot support
your argument, perhaps you aught to re-think it?

But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
may be onto something big!

>reading this board would have a physical grasp of.
>
>The point of my article was not the itemization of what effects TV reception,
>it was stating simply that people HAVE studied these phenomena seriously,
>and the should be listened to, not televangelical-like fame seekers.

I would be glad to listen to them. But they do not seem to be posting here.
So I guess we must both muddle through as best we can.

>|> >It is a fairly common effect that moving a TV, furniture, or even having
>|> >someone stand near the TV ...
>
>|> Try again. What we have is stray capacitance detuning loosly coupled
>|> resonant circuits.
>
>Obviously, that's clear, but what about the reception?
>:)
>I'm sure there is at least one person out of the hundreds reading this
>group that understands that statement.  Ou, nope, they got him, never mind.

I think that you'd be surprised. Either that, or I'd be dissapointed.
>
>|>                                                           .... None
>|> of these effects are in any way due to the ionic content of the cells/
>|> blood.
>
>So your saying the human body does not interact with EM-wave to any
>extent?  I happen to know that you can pick up a human body of extremely
>shortwave radar (10 cm wl or so).

Ever heard of a microwave oven? I think you are talking about the same
effect. And it has nothing to do with ions. Pure water is heated just as
well as salt/whatever water. While I do not recall exactly, the effect if
due to the hydrogen atoms in water absorbing the microwave energy. The
additional energy is expressed as heat, there not being enough energy for
the hydrogen to break the bonds (covalent I think, but I am unsure) which
holds then to the oxygen. Chemistry is not my field, so I have not
expressed this clearly, but I think it is fundamentally correct.

>|> >I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
>|> >physicists...
>|>
>|> I'd encourage those interested to study the electronics first.
>
>Physicists like to believe that nearly everything falls under physics.

I'm not sure what this comment has to do with anything. Perhaps you can
elucidate?

>                    - Jeff

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: First contact in '95 (was: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 16:57:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <![e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>>Why they don't make contact:
>>Maybe they're trying the best they can ... if they even exist.
>
>In article <![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>Right, they have the capability to abduct people right and left,
>>travel (seemingly) great distances, and do all sort of incredible
>>things, and they cannot figure out how to say "We are here".  This I
>>find beyond belief.
>
>Definitive contact will be made in 1995.  I won't justify or elaborate on that
>assertion.  Just remember me in '95 so that I can become rich and famous. >:)

I've heard the 'sometime soon' remark before. But I do not understand the
significance of 1995. But, like the 'world will end by 19XX' announcements
that happen every so often, this claim has also been made before, has it not?

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!uchinews!msuinfo!eecae.ee.msu.edu!grimm
From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 23:45:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Michigan State University
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[e-mail] (Dave Pierson) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark
>William Hopkins) writes, in part:

>>wish someone would get off their duffer and do some real investigating
>>on the topic of electromagnetic fields surrounding the body, so the whole
>>subject can be demystified.
>>

Mark Hopkins:

The BIG controversy is in Low-freqeunyc (50-70 Hz) fields, not high
frequency effects.  Those are well known.  For example, beam a 100Watt
signal at 2.5 GHz at a person, and they cook!.

Much has been done on the EE side of the coin.  A number of EE groups have
special committees that track the state of research.

Most studies showing any linkages to cancer, etc; also do not have valid
scientific control groups to compare to.  Most EM stuff does not deal with
long-term exposure.  So both sides are arguing their point on incomplete
information, just like with the JFK assasination.

>>Here's an interesting experience.  I was sitting on the floor a short way
>>from the TV, playing with a broken piece of metal antenna while watching
>>channel 10.  I kept on getting poor reception and could figure out for the
>>life of me why ... until I move the metal away from my head.
>>When I moved it away, the reception became clear, when I moved it back, the
>>reception went haywire the very instant the antenna got to within 1/2" of my
>>skull.  It was not only repeatible, but it was in fact rather easy to

>    Antennas act (I am going to keep this rough and ready...) on the EM
>    field provided by the transmitter.  The exact positioning of the
>    elements, even ones not connected electrically to the active ones
>    is critical.  (The general type is referred to as a "Yagi".)  I rather
>    suspect that a suitably constructed mannequin (personaguin??) (proper
>    conductivity, say with a cabbage or pineapple for a head) would exhibit
>    similar effects.
>dave pierson            |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,

You are fairly accurate in your Statement, DAve.  Before I comment, can
MArk provide this following information:
    Distance to TV
    Was Antenna piece connected to TV.
    Antenna piece orientation with respect to ground (horiz, vertical);
      and if that had any effect.
    Does TV have rabbit ear antenna, or cable?

What probably happened is that the position of the antenna piece near your
head served to load that antenna piece.  As a consequence, the field
supported by the antenna is drastically changed, thus interfering with
your TV reception.  Far away from your head, you can't couple to the
load (ie, the head); ergo, no appreciable effect.

Mike Grimm
"EM is my life -- unfortunately"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!bu.edu!transfer!buzzardroost.az.stratus.com
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Scott)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: New to the group!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 18:30:54 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 20


Greetings Earthlings! (I assume that all who post here are earth bound)

I have just discovered this group and have spent quite some time reading
some 200+ posts on aliens and UFO's. I have always had a great interest in
strange phenomena (Stonehenge, Devils Triangle, The Vortex etc...) and was
wondering if there is any concentration of sightings in these areas. I am
especially interested in the Sedon, AZ area where the Vortex is. From what
I have heard the Vortex is one of the "pressure points" of the earth and
by standing at the top of one of the peaks in this area you can experience
some sort of "power surge". Does anyone know anythin about this area or
the phenomena associated with it or for that matter the exact location of
the Vortex?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!noao!arizona.edu!hep6.physics.arizona.edu!wallin
From: [e-mail] (Tripp Wallin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Keywords: physics, spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 00:46:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]>
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In article <s=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> >In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> >|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> >|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) wri
|>
|> No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
|> The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.

   Recalling some freshman physics classes about EM I do recall that
   a solution rich in salt will conduct electricity. I believe that you
   can even make a weak battery out of sea water because of this property.
   And isn't blood very rich in salt. So wouldn't blood be a very weak
   conductor as sea water is? This of course is just a guess though.......

|> Neither are wood or walls. And I also see ethical problems in stating
|> things you know to be untrue because you think the target audiance will be
|> unaware of the deception. If the truth (as you know it) cannot support
|> your argument, perhaps you aught to re-think it?

   Okay now on to the unethical comment. How unethical is this? I don't
   think it is that unethical at all. Take an example of a freshman level
   physics class. When you are first introduce to Newtonian mechanics
   you are told they govern the world as we know it. Now that is a false
   statement, what about quantuam mechanics. But in teaching you try and
   introduce the simpler things first and build up to the complicated.
   Probably most of the people in that newsgroup aren't very scientific
   so any help in understanding is nice.

|> But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
|> may be onto something big!

   This was just a low blow. Very unprofessional.......

|> Ever heard of a microwave oven? I think you are talking about the same
|> effect. And it has nothing to do with ions. Pure water is heated just as
|> well as salt/whatever water. While I do not recall exactly, the effect if
|> due to the hydrogen atoms in water absorbing the microwave energy. The
|> additional energy is expressed as heat, there not being enough energy for
|> the hydrogen to break the bonds (covalent I think, but I am unsure) which
|> holds then to the oxygen. Chemistry is not my field, so I have not
|> expressed this clearly, but I think it is fundamentally correct.

   What is the comment about the microwave oven about. I'm sorry I don't
   see how you came from a discussion about the human bodies interaction
   with EM waves to a microwave oven.
|>
|> Rich
|>
|> [e-mail]

   COME ON, the kid is an undergraduate ( as I am so please excuse any large
   mistakes. I've only taken one EM course so far.) I admire him for at least
   trying to get rid of a lot of the mystical/new age stuff many people are
   heading for these days.

   I imagine there will of course be a lot of criticism on me too. Oh well
   I probably need to learn to keep my mouth shut.....

                       -Tripp
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!noao!arizona.edu!hep7.physics.arizona.edu!nelson
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 00:49:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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Hate to escalate what has obviously just become a flame war, but ...

In article <s=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|>
|> >Ok, pick up two electrodes, one in each hand ...
|> >Maybe conductance is a poor choice of words, varying dielectric constansts
|> >might be more applicable.  Saying conductance was something I felt more people
|>
|> No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
|> The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.

Aren't we feeling a bit anal today?  Tell me, if I said dielectric constant
to the group on alt.alien.visitors, do you think everyone reading the
board would have the background to have even the foggiest what the heck
I was saying?  NO.  Conductance, yes.  I did the best I could.


|> But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
|> may be onto something big!

None of my article or references have been about the construction
of antennas, only disturbances of EM-waves.  My articles have never
even assumed that the waves actually WERE ever being received.


|> >The point of my article was not the itemization of what effects TV reception,
|> >it was stating simply that people HAVE studied these phenomena seriously,
|> >and the should be listened to, not televangelical-like fame seekers.
|>
|> I would be glad to listen to them. But they do not seem to be posting here.
|> So I guess we must both muddle through as best we can.

Obviously.


|> >|> Try again. What we have is stray capacitance detuning loosly coupled
|> >|> resonant circuits.

|> >I'm sure there is at least one person out of the hundreds reading this
|> >group that understands that statement.  Ou, nope, they got him, never mind.
|>
|> I think that you'd be surprised. Either that, or I'd be dissapointed.

Again, this thread originates in alt.alien.visitors, NOT sci.physics.
Revise your estimate.


|> >|>                                                           .... None
|> >|> of these effects are in any way due to the ionic content of the cells/
|> >|> blood.
|> >
|> >So your saying the human body does not interact with EM-wave to any
|> >extent?  I happen to know that you can pick up a human body of extremely
|> >shortwave radar (10 cm wl or so).
|>
|> Ever heard of a microwave oven? ...

Microwave oven....  oh, uhhh... no, they call that a toaster....
ah, no ... that's a conventional oven ... no, cupboard...

You obviously have nothing better to do than to be insulting.

I realize how microwave ovens work and since I have taken an
advanced course in molecular spectroscopy probably know a substantially
amount more than Mr. Wizard Yourself about their excitation of water.

Interestingly though, the shortwave radar to microwave spectrum
can also be used as an imaging system, and was early on in the days
of radar development.  At the time, pilots actually complained of heating
of metal components in their planes.  (no this is not BS)


|> >|> >I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
|> >|> >physicists...
|> >|>
|> >|> I'd encourage those interested to study the electronics first.
|> >
|> >Physicists like to believe that nearly everything falls under physics.
|>
|> I'm not sure what this comment has to do with anything. Perhaps you can
|> elucidate?

You honestly don't see the connection?  Wow.

Maybe you did try that electrode thing after all...

                    - Jeff
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: "Fate" Replies to Electronic Publishing of Klass' "Crybaby"
Summary: They were stung by the revelation of their one-sidedness!
Message-ID: <a#[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 20:00:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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               Editorial In the May, 1992 "Fate" Magazine, p.12-18



             In  the  past several years microcomputers,  also  known  as
        personal  computers  or  PCs, have become  wildly  popular.  Many
        have  them at home and use them     for such purposes as  keeping
        records,  educating children, typing letters and  playing  games.
        FATE  itself is produced almost     entirely on  Apple  Macintosh
        PCs.     One of the uses of PCs is to     communicate with  other
        PC users     in a place they call "cyberspace" (a     name  taken
        from  a science fiction novel). Actually, cyberspace is  a  place
        where  electronic communication takes place - it has no  physical
        existence.  The  linking  of PC users, done with the  help  of  a
        computer  device  called a "modem", takes place  on  a  "bulletin
        Board System," or "BBS." There are thousands of BBSes around  the
        U.S.A.
             The  people  who  use  BBSes communicate  on  a  variety  of
        subjects,  including  the  paranormal.  Skeptics  participate  on
        BBSes, too.
             Recently, an article written over a decade ago has begun  to
        appear  on the BBSes. It was written by Philip J. Klass,  one  of
        the   primary  members  of  the  Committee  for  the   Scientific
        Investigation  of  Claims  of the  Paranormal  (CSICOP).  We  are
        mentioning this because the article is an attack both on FATE and
        an  article we published. As we do not have our own BBS,  we  are
        responding here.
             In 1981 we published an article entitled sTARBABY by  Dennis
        Rawlins, a former member of CSICOP. In it he revealed that CSICOP
        faked  information on research into one aspect of  astrology  and
        then  committed a coverup of what they did. The result  was  that
        CSICOP  lost  many members and, contrary to its name,  no  longer
        will  sponsor any investigations. They have never apologized  for
        what  they did, although they have admitted that  "mistakes  were
        made."
             sTARBABY  was published only after the most intensive  study
        of  the  documentation  by  Rawlins  that  FATE  ever  performed.
        According to Jerome Clark, FATE was supplied hundreds of pages of
        documentation along with tape recordings of telephone calls.  Due
        to the severity of the charges in that article, we ran it by  our
        lawyers  before publishing it. There are strong charges made.  We
        have  no doubt that lawsuits would have been filed if there  were
        any errors in that story. No such suits were ever filed.
             Mr.  Klass  did,  however, send  us  a  rambling,  logicless
        article  he  entitled "Crybaby". It refuted  almost  nothing  but
        attempted  to  show that Mr. Rawlins was a  troublemaker.  It  is
        Crybaby that is making the rounds via BBSes. We remind you,  once
        again,  of  Cicero's  advice ["if you have  no  case,  abuse  the
        plaintiff"]. It would seem that Mr. Klass has followed it to  the
        long-winded letter.
             The  version  of  Crybaby  making  the  rounds  now  has  an
        introduction  that  has some misleading  information.  They  say,
        "FATE  adamantly refused to publish this article."  According  to
        Clark, he wanted to publish it because its poor quality would  be
        more  of  an  embarrassment to Klass than a  true  refutation  of
        sTARBABY.  He  was  overruled in this as FATE  did  not  want  to
        include the poor writing.
             According  to  Clark, FATE requested an article  that  dealt
        with  the  issues  of sTARBABY rather  than  the  poorly  written
        Crybaby. Ten years later we have received nothing.
             There is a new addendum to Klass's article. The addition was
        written by Robert Sheaffer in November 1991. It has nothing to do
        with sTARBABY, but continues the attack on Rawlins. The  subject?
        Whether Admiral Peary actually reached the North Pole!
             The truth of the matter is this:
             1)  After  a  decade,  CSICOP is  still  smarting  from  the
        drubbing  it  took  as a result of its  actions  as  revealed  in
        sTARBABY. It is still affecting the group and its membership.
             2)  In  spite  of its name, CSICOP  no  longer  investigates
        anything, nor does it sponsor research.
             3)  CSICOP members have learned how to apply the  advice  of
        Cicero.
             It  would  seem that the term "crybaby" actually  should  be
        applied to Klass and CSICOP.



                  My comments on the above editorial from FATE:

        It  strains  credibility to claim that an article  written  by  a
        professional  journalist of over thirty years' standing  who  has
        won numerous awards for his excellence in writing, is unpublisha-
        ble  because  it is "logicless" and of its  "poor  quality".  For
        example,  in  1973 Klass was named a fellow in the  Institute  of
        Electrical  and Electronic Engineers for his  accomplishments  in
        technical  writing,  and in 1989 the Aviation and  Space  Writers
        Association  awarded Klass its most prestigious Lauren  D.  Lyman
        Award. A much more credible reason is: FATE had long been seeking
        about  for  a convenient mallet to use for  bashing  CSICOP,  and
        decided that Rawlins' "sTARBABY" would serve nicely,   regardless
        of  whether  or not Rawlins' charges were  well-grounded;  hence,
        they did not want the weaknesses in Rawlins' case to be known  to
        their  readers.  Jerome Clark, who was then associate  editor  of
        Fate (and is currently the editor of the CUFOS Bulletin), is  the
        one  who claimed that the "poor quality" of Klass' article  would
        have been an embarrassment to all parties involved. For those who
        have  not  read it, I attach Klass' "Crybaby" below; you  be  the
        judge of whether or not Jerome Clark was lying about its  obvious
        "poor quality". In any case, Klass still has a letter dated  Dec.
        1,  1981  from Mary Margaret Fuller (then Editor of  Fate)  which
        gives as the excuse for not publishing "Crybaby" that "nothing in
        your  manuscript refutes [Rawlins'] allegations." Again,  re-read
        Klass' article, then you may be the judge of whether or not  THIS
        particular excuse for refusing to publishing it is valid.

        As for the postscript I added about Rawlins and his harsh charges
        about  the  supposed conspiracy and coverup  of  Admiral  Peary's
        alleged  failure to reach the North Pole, that, too, is  attached
        below. Fate wants you to think it was absurdly irrelevant for  me
        to  bring this up, but clearly it is not, as it reveals  Rawlins'
        propensity for making reckless accusations. It lays bare Rawlins'
        _modus  operandi_  to  those who know him  only  for  "sTARBABY."
        Rawlins' recklessness in charging the National Geographic Society
        with   a  coverup  and conspiracy is  truly  appalling,  and  his
        insistence  on maintaining these same bizarre charges even  after
        they  were  definitively  refuted  demonstrates  his  visions  of
        "conspiracies" to be utterly devoid of any connection to reality.

        Finally,  lest  Fate  get too smug complimenting  itself  in  its
        supposed  success in causing CSICOP to "lose  members",  consider
        this:  In 1981, when Rawlins' "sTARBABY" was published,  CSICOP's
        quarterly  journal "The Skeptical Inquirer" had a circulation  of
        approximately 8,000. At present, its circulation is approximately
        35,000.
                                          - Robert Sheaffer



                            "CRYBABY"

                       By Philip J. Klass



Philip J.  Klass is a member of the Executive Council,  Committee
for  the  Scientific  Investigation of Claims of  the  Paranormal
(CSICOP).


     [Note:  This  article,  written in 1981,  was submitted  for
     publication  to  FATE Magazine,  in reply to Dennis Rawlins'
     accusations against   CSICOP in his Oct.,  1981 FATE article
     "sTARBABY".  FATE adamantly refused to publish this article.
     Meanwhile,  Rawlins  was  given the opportunity  to  make  a
     rambling,  six-page  statement  in  the  SKEPTICAL  INQUIRER
     (Winter,  1981-82,  p.58),  which  was published exactly  as
     received,  presenting  his accusations of a "coverup."  This
     was  in addition to the 5 1/2 page article he earlier had on
     the "Mars Effect" in the Winter,  1979-80 issue  (p.26).  To
     this  day,  supporters of the paranormal still charge CSICOP
     with  perpetrating  a  "coverup"  on  this  matter.  Only  a
     relatively  few people ever saw Klass' "CRYBABY",  the  long
     and detailed answer to Rawlins' "sTARBABY" charges. Now that
     you  have the opportunity to read Klass' rebuttal,  you  can
     make up your own mind.

     Klass'  original text has been reproduced below,  exactly as
     typed,   with   the  author's   permission.   Spelling   and
     punctuation have not been changed.  Text that was underlined
     in the original appears in capital letters.
             -  Robert Sheaffer, Bay Area Skeptics, 1991.
          This  article  is brought to you courtesy  of  the  Bay
          Area  Skeptics'  BBS,  415-648-8944,  from which it  is
          available for downloading, although not via FTP.]




     "They  call  themselves  the Committee  for  the  Scientific
Investigation  of Claims of the Paranormal.  In fact,  they are a
group    of   would-be-debunkers   who   bungled   their    major
investigation,  falsified the results ,  covered up their  errors
and  gave  the  boot to a colleague who threatened  to  tell  the
truth." Thus began a 32-Page article in the October 1981 issue of
FATE  magazine,  which  a a press release  headlined:  "SCIENTIST
BLOWS THE WHISTLE ON PARANORMAL COVERUP."

     Since CSICOP was formed in the spring of 1976, it has been a
thorn  in  the  side  of those who  promote  belief  in  "psychic
phenomena," in astrology,  UFOs,  and similar subjects and it has
been criticized sharply by FATE whose articles generally cater to
those who are eager to believe.  However,  this FATE article  was
written  by skeptic Dennis Rawlins,  who was one of the  original
Fellows  in CSICOP and for nearly four years had been a member of
its  Executive  Council.  This  would seem to  give  credence  to
Rawlins'  charges  -- except  to  those  of  us  with  first-hand
experience  in trying to work with him and who are familiar  with
his modus-operandi.

     Because  Rawlins proposed my election to CSICOP's  Executive
Council  I cannot be charged with animosity  toward  him,  except
what  he later engendered by his actions.  And in a recent letter
to  me,  Rawlins volunteered that I "was less involved  than  any
other active Councillor" in the alleged misdeeds.

     The  FATE  article,  entitled  "sTARBABY"  prompted  my  own
investigation  into  Rawlins' charges.  But unlike  Rawlins,  who
relies heavily on his recollection of conversations several years
earlier,  I  chose  to use hard  evidence  - published  articles,
memoranda  and  letters,  some  of  which Rawlins  cites  in  his
article.  When I requested copies of these letters and  memoranda
from  the  several  principals involved,  all of  them  responded
promptly  and  fully except for one -- Dennis  Rawlins,  who  had
accused  the  others  of  "cover-up"  and  "censorship."  RAWLINS
REFUSED   MY  REPEATED REQUESTS TO SUPPLY HARD  DATA  THAT  MIGHT
CONFIRM HIS CHARGES, AND WHICH ALSO COULD DENY THEM!

     The  results  of  my  investigation,  based  on  hard  data,
prompted me to conclude that the Rawlins article should have been
entitled  "CRYBABY," and that an appropriate subtitle would  have
been: "A wounded ego is the root of much evil."

     If  the editors of FATE had spent only a few  hours  reading
published articles cited in the Rawlins article they could not in
good  conscience have accused CSICOP of "cover-up" or  of  having
"falsified  the  results."  Instead, FATE  chose  to  ignore  the
traditional journalistic practice of investigating both sides  of
a controversial issue and publishing both sides, as those accused
by Rawlins had done.

      Rawlins'  charges result from two tests intended to  assess
whether the position of the planet Mars at the time of a person's
birth  has  a significant influence on whether he/she  becomes  a
"sports  champion."  This  "Mars  effect"  hypothesis  was  first
proposed by France's Michel Gauquelin, who directs the laboratory
for the Study of Relations between Cosmic and Psychophysiological
Rhythms, based on a study of European champions.

     The  first  of  the  two tests was  performed  by  Gauquelin
himself, with results that generally  were supportive of the Mars
effect hypothesis by eliminating a possible objection that  first
had been raised by others, i,e, not CSICOP. The only way in which
CSICOP,  or  persons  affiliated  with it,  could  be  guilty  of
Rawlins'  charges  would  be  if  they  had  refused  to  publish
Gauquelin's  results or had intentionally altered the data in his
report.  NEITHER OCCURRED. Nor did Gauquelin accuse CSICOP or its
members of trying to "cover-up" his results or altering the  data
of  this  first  test whose calculations  he  himself  performed,
although  there  were some differences of interpretation  of  the
implication of these results.

     HOWEVER, GAUQUELIN DID PUBLICLY ACCUSE RAWLINS OF DISTORTION
AND  MISREPRESENTATION,  with implied criticism of CSICOP because
Rawlins then was a member of its Executive Council.  There  would
be  other  occasions when CSICOP would be criticized  because  of
Rawlins' intemperate statements and actions.

     This  criticism was published by CSICOP in the  Winter  l978
issue of its publication,  THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER (p.  80). In it
Gauquelin  wrote:  "How,  in  spite  of all this data  could  one
distort and misrepresent the effect in question and sow doubts on
the subject?  Dennis Rawlins, a member of CSICP ... has done just
this in a polemic which appeared in the Fall-Winter 1977 issue of
that  (CSICOP's) journal." In "sTARBABY," Rawlins tries to  shift
the blame for his transgressions to CSICOP.

     According  to "sTARBABY," CSICOP Chairman Prof.  Paul  Kurtz
was  the  principal architect of the  alleged  cover-up.  Yet  in
reality  it  was  Kurtz,  then editor of  THE  HUMANIST  magazine
(published  by  the  American  Humanist Assn.)  who  printed  the
lengthy  paper by Gauquelin describing the  seemingly  favorable-
for-him  results of the first test in the Nov/Dec,l977 issue  (p.
30). What kind of doubletalk is this when Rawlins and FATE charge
that  Kurtz's  decision to publish test results favorable  to  an
"adversary"  represents a "cover-up"?  Rawlins might better  have
waited until "l984" to resort to such "double-speak" accusations.

     Because  the  issues are complex and because  two  different
publications  and  organizations were involved,  it is useful  to
recount  briefly  the events that led to the  first  Mars  effect
test,  which is at the root of the Rawlins/FATE charges,  and the
second tests performed using data for outstanding U.S.  athletes.
Based  on  calculations performed by Rawlins  himself,  the  U.S.
champions  test showed a very UNFAVORABLE result for the  claimed
Mars  effect,  which  Rawlins confirms in "sTARBABY."  And  these
Rawlins-computed  results  were  published,  without  change,  by
CSICOP.

      The Sept/Oct. l975 issue of THE HUMANIST carried an article
by  L.E.  Jerome that was critical of astrology in general and of
the  Mars  effect  in  particular.   When  Gauquelin  sought   an
opportunity for rebuttal, Kurtz provided it in the Jan./Feb. 1976
issue of THE HUMANIST,  which also carried several other articles
on      astrology.  Because Gauquelin's article claimed that  the
Mars  effect  had  been confirmed by Belgian  Committee  for  the
Scientific Investigation of Alleged Paranormal Phenomena (created
some  25 years earlier),  that group also was invited by Kurtz to
submit an article for publication.  Belgian Comite Para, as it is
called, confirmed Gauquelin's calculations. But it questioned his
statistical  assumption "that the frequency distribution  of  the
hours  of  birth  during the day (the nych-themeral curve)  is  a
constant   distribution...",   i.e.   that  there  is  an   equal
probability  of a person being born during any hour of  the  day.

      This  seemed  important because the Mars effect  hypothesis
holds  that persons born during an approximately two-hour  period
just  after Mars has "risen" or during a comparable period  after
Mars is at upper culmination (zenith),  are more likely to become
sports champions than persons born during other hours of the day.
If  there is an equal probability of a person being born  in  any
one  of  the  24  hours,  then  4/24,  or  l6.7%,of  the  general
population  should be born  when Mars is in one of these two "key
sectors." (Because of combined orbital motions of Earth and Mars,
the percentage of the day in which Mars is in two key sectors  is
approximately  l7%.  But  Gauquelin  reported that  22%  European
champions in his data base had been born when Mars was in the two
key sectors, significantly higher than the l7% "benchmark."

      Because  of  the  issue  raised  by  Comite'  Para,   Kurtz
consulted statistics professor Marvin Zelen who in turn proposed a
control  test that could resolve the statistical issue raised  by
Comite'  Para.  This Zelen proposed test,  also published in  the
same  (Jan./Feb.  1976)  issue of THE  HUMANIST,  suggested  that
Gauquelin  should gather birth data for "non-champions"  who  had
been  born  in  the same local areas and within three days  of  a
RANDOMLY  SELECTED  sub-sample  of  Gauquelin's  "champions"  who
seemed to show the Mars effect.

     If  only 17% of these NON-champions were born when Mars  was
in  the  two  key sectors,  this would void the issue  raised  by
Comite  Para.  But if roughly 22% of the NON-champions also  were
born  when Mars was in the two key sectors,  this would  undercut
the  Mars effect hypothesis.  Zelen's article concluded that  the
proposed   test  offered  "an  objective  way   for   unambiguous
corroboration  or dis-confirmation." In retrospect it would  have
been  more  precise  had he added:  "...of the  issue  raised  by
Belgian  Comite Para." If Gauquelin's sample of "champions"  data
was "biased," as Rawlins first suspected, this could not possibly
be detected by the Zelen-proposed test.

     The  same issue of The Humanist carried another article,  by
astronomy professor George O.  Abell, which was very skeptical of
astrology in general.  But unlike Rawlins who dismissed the  Mars
effect  out-of-hand  and "didn't believe that it merited  serious
investigation yet" (FATE: p. 74), Abell wrote that if Gauquelin's
findings were correct, they were "extremely interesting."

     However,  Abell included the following note of caution:  "If
all of Gauquelin's work is re-checked,  and his results hold  up,
then  it is necessary to repeat the experiment with a new sample,
say  in the United States.  If that sample should give  the  same
result,  then  further  verification  is in order,  until  it  is
absolutely  certain that the effects are real  and  reproducible.
That  is  the way science works;  reproducibility of  results  is
necessary before fundamental new laws can be inferred." This sage
advice  clearly indicated the limits of what conclusions could be
drawn,  and could not be drawn,  from the results of the upcoming
Zelen  test,  and  even from a complete re-check  of  Gauquelin's
original data on European champions,  which was not attempted. It
should  be stressed that at the time this first (Zelen) test  was
proposed, CSICOP did not yet exist. Several months later, when it
was formed (initially under the auspices of the American Humanist
Assn.),  Kurtz  became  its co-chairman and later  its  chairman.
Zelen and Abell were named Fellows, but not to CSICOP's Executive
Council.  In  l980,  Abell was elected to replace Rawlins on  the
Council.

     The results of this first (Zelen) test were published in the
Nov./Dec.,  l977 issue of THE HUMANIST, where the issue first was
raised,  although  by this time CSICOP had its  own  publication.
Gauquelin and his wife Francoise were given nearly six large-size
magazine  pages  to  present their findings  without  censorship.
Gauquelin reported having difficulties in obtaining data for non-
champions  born within several days of champions in small  towns,
so  he said that non-champions birth data had been obtained  only
from  the  large cities in France  and  Belgium,  The  Gauquelins
reported  that  these  data  showed that only  l7%  of  the  non-
champions  had  been born when Mars was in the two sectors  which
seemed  to resolve the issue earlier raised by  Belgium's  Comite
Para in favor of the Mars effect.

     The  same issue of THE HUMANIST carried an  article  jointly
authored  by Zelen,  Kurtz,  and Abell,  that began:  "Is there a
'Mars  Effect'?  The preceding article by  Michel  and  Francoise
Gauquelin  discusses the experiment proposed by Marvin Zelen  and
its  subsequent outcome.  Their conclusions come out in favor  of
the existence of a 'Mars effect' related to sports champions.  It
is  the  purpose of this article to discuss the analysis  of  the
data  and  to  point  out the strengths  and  weaknesses  of  the
evidence in favor of the 'Mars effect.'"

     The  Zelen/Kurtz/Abell  article raised some questions  about
the results. For example, that "the 'Mars effect' only appears in
Paris,  not  in  Belgium or in the rest of France."  The  article
concluded: "lf one had a high prior 'belief' that there is a Mars
effect,  then  the Gauquelin data would serve confirm this  prior
belief.  In the other hand,  if the prior belief in the existence
of a Mars effect was low,  then this data may raise the posterior
belief,  but  not  enough  to accept the existence  of  the  Mars
effect."

     Rawlins charges that publication of this article,  following
the  uncensored Gauquelin paper,"commited CSICOP to a  cover-up."
(FATE:  p.76) Yet is characteristic of scientific controversy for
one  party to question or challenge another's  interpretation  of
the  data.  And  Gauquelin would do so following the second  test
without being accused of a "cover-up" in "sTARBABY."

     In  the same issue of THE HUMANIST,  in a brief introduction
written by Kurtz, the first "linkage" with CSICOP occurred. Kurtz
wrote:  "Thus,  members of CSICP involved in this inquiry believe
that  the claim that there is a statistical relationship  between
the position of Mars at the time of birth of individuals and  the
incidence of sports champions among them has not been established
... to further the cause of scientific inquiry, the committee has
agreed  (with  Gauquelin)  to  make an independent  test  of  the
alleged Mars effect by a study of sports champions in the  United
States."

     In "sTARBABY," Rawlins charges that the U. S, champions test
was a "diversion." Clearly the Gauquelins themselves did not view
it in this light,  judging from the concluding statement in their
article which said:  "Let us hope that these positive results may
induce other scientists to study whether this effect,  discovered
with the European data, appears also with the U.S. data."

     On March 28,  1978,  SEVERAL MONTHS AFTER THE RESULTS OF THE
FIRST TEST WERE PUBLISHED,  Rawlins sent Kurtz a copy of a three-
page memorandum he had prepared a year earlier (March 29,  1977).
It  contained  a very technical analysis of the issue  raised  by
Comite  Para,  which  prompted Rawlins to conclude that  the  22%
figure  reported  for European champions was not the result of  a
disproportionate share of births of the general population during
the early morning hours when Mars often was in one of the two key
sectors.  In this analysis,  Rawlins concluded that Gauquelin had
"made fair allowance for the effect."

     But  Rawlins  had  not written this  three-page  memo  until
several  month  AFTER  the Zelen test had been  proposed  in  THE
HUMANIST.  Shortly after preparing the analysis, Rawlins had sent
a  copy  to  Prof.  Marcello  Truzzi,  then  editor  of  CSICOP's
publication. Truzzi had decided not to publish it but sent a copy
to Gauquelin. IF the Rawlins analysis of 1977 took account of all
possible demographic factors -- and there is some disagreement on
this  question -- it was much too technical to be  understood  by
persons without expertise in statistics and celestial mechanics.

     When  Rawlins finally got around to sending this analysis to
Kurtz  on  March  28,  1978,  his letter of  that  date  did  NOT
criticize  Truzzi or CSICOP for not having published it  earlier.
Rather,  Rawlins admitted,  "I should not have kept my (Mar.  19,
1977)  memo..private  after all." He did suggest that perhaps  it
might now be published in THE HUMANIST. But by this time Kurtz no
longer was its editor.  More important,  the results of the first
(Zelen) test already had been published several months earlier.

If,   as   Rawlins   would   later   charge   in"sTARBABY,"   the
Zelen/Kurtz/Abell article published several months earlier in THE
HUMANIST amounted to a "cover- up," Rawlins did not make such  an
accusation  to Kurtz when he wrote him April  6,  1978.  Instead,
Rawlins  wrote;  "I  think  our best bets now  are  1.  The  main
European  investigation might seek to discover how the Eur.  samp
(of Gauquelin) was (hypothetically) fudged -- check orig. records
microscopically for some sort of Soal trick.  2. Proceed with the
U.S, test, where we know we have a clean (unbiased) sample."

     This April 6,  1978, letter clearly shows that while Rawlins
suspected  that Gauquelin had manipulated his European  champions
data  ("Soal  trick")  he  found no evidence  of  wrong-doing  by
Zelen/Kurtz/Abell. On April 26, 1978, in another letter to Kurtz,
following his visit with Rawlins in San Diego, Rawlins wrote that
he "was certain" that Gauquelin's original data "was biased,  but
not  sure how." Rawlins concluded this letter on a cordial  note:
"Now,  wasn't it great visiting sunny,  funny,  California -- and
getting  to  see a real live nut religion launch  itself  in  San
Diego? ... hope you'll get back this way soon again."

     It  was  at about this time that CSICOP came under fire  for
Rawlins'  actions  in  another matter.  In the  summer  of  1977,
Rawlins and Abell had been invited to be panelists in a symposium
on  astrology  to  be held March 18,  1978 at the  University  of
Toronto at which Gauquelin,  among others, would participate. The
invitation  came from Dr.  Howard Eisenberg on the stationary  of
the University's School of Continuing Studies.  Both Rawlins  and
Abel  had accepted.  Then,  in late  September,  1977,  Eisenberg
withdrew  the invitations on the grounds that "the response  from
potential speakers...has yielded an incredible acceptance rate of
100%.  This  places us in the embarassing position of  not  being
able  to sponsor all of you," i.e.  pay travel expenses and allow
formal presentations.

     On  Feb.  6,  1978,  Rawlins wrote to the president  of  the
University of Toronto,  protesting what he said were "a number of
oddities"  associated with the symposium,  including an imbalance
between  the  number of astrology supporters  and  skeptics.  The
Rawlins letter charged that "this conference looks to be a pretty
phoney  confrontation,  which will therefore give the  irrational
pseudo-science of astrology an evidentially-unmerited  'academic'
boost in public credibility..." Rawlins sent a copy of his letter
to another university official.

     Rawlins'   suspicion  of  a  loaded  panel  may  have   been
justified.  But  the  letter  of protest was  written  on  CSICOP
stationery   and  signed  "Dennis  Rawlins,   Executive  Council,
CSICOP."  Another regretable action was a Rawlins telephone  call
late  at  night  to  a  university  astronomy  professor,  Robert
Garrison,  which gave the impression that Rawlins was speaking in
behalf  of  CSICOP.  In fact,  Rawlins had  taken  these  actions
without  consulting  other Council members and  without  official
approval to use CSICOP's name. In early April 1978, a copy of the
Rawlins letter had reached Truzzi,  who also had been invited and
dis-invited to participate in the conference.  The Rawlins letter
claimed  that  Truzzi  had co-authored  "an  astrology-supporting
paper...and  so rates as a strange sort of skeptic." Truzzi  sent
Kurtz a copy of this Rawlins letter with a note that said: "Since
Dennis'  letter is on Committee stationery,  would appear  he  is
writing on behalf of the Committee,  I trust that will not happen
again."

     Rawlins'  actions  were  reported in the  Canadian  magazine
SCIENCE  FORUM July/August 1978,  in an article written by  Lydia
Dotto.   The   article,   entitled  "Science  Confronts  'Pseudo-
Science'", began; "It was after midnight on a Saturday night when
University  of Toronto astronomer Bob Garrison was awakened by  a
phone  call.  The  caller identified himself as a member  of  the
Committee  for  the  Scientific Investigation of  Claims  of  the
Paranormal,  and according to Garrison, he spent the best part of
the  next hour urging the U of T scientist not to participate  in
the  conference  on  astrology...Dennis  Rawlins,   a  California
astronomer  and  science writer and a member  of  the  Committee,
acknowledged in an interview that he made the call, but denied he
was    trying   to   talk   Garrison   out   of   attending   the
conference...this and other incidents surrounding the  conference
have become something of a cause celebre,  particularly since the
event  was cancelled shortly before it was to have taken place in
mid-March.  Predictably, ACCUSATIONS BEGAN TO FLY THAT SCIENTIFIC
OPPONENTS  OF  ASTROLOGY WERE ENGAGED IN A CAMPAIGN  TO  SUPPRESS
FREEDOM OF SPEECH." (Emphasis added.)

     Indeed  they did,  much to CSICOP's embarassment.  Britain's
New Scientist magazine,  in its June 29,  1978, issue, quoted the
Canadian magazine in an article that began: "Earlier this year an
astronomer at the University of Toronto,  Dr.  Bob Garrison,  was
awakened  by  a  phone call from a member of  Committee  for  the
Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.  The caller
allegedly spent most of the next hour trying to dissuade Garrison
from taking part in a conference on astrology."

     This  New Scientist account was picked up by FATE  magazine,
which in turn attributed the action to CSICOP rather than to  one
Council   member.   FATE  commented:   "If  you  have  difficulty
understanding  their (CSICOP) motives,  remember that here  is  a
dedicated  group of witch-hunters seeking to burn nonbelievers at
the  stake." (How ironic that FATE now is promoting the views  of
the  same person whose intemperate earlier actions  had  provoked
FATE's harsh criticism.) The same criticism of CSICOP, because of
Rawlins'  actions  surfaced  again in a feature  article  in  THE
WASHINGTON  POST (Aug.  26,  1979).  The article,  syndicated and
published  elsewhere,   was  written  by  Ted  Rockwell  who  was
identified as a member of the Parapsychological Association.

     When  I  learned of the Rawlins incident,  I was shocked  as
were  others  on the Council.  But all of us hoped  that  Council
members  had  learned an important lesson from the  incident  and
that  it  would have a maturing effect  on  Rawlins.  Yet  before
another  year had passed Rawlins would once again demonstrate his
inability  to  distinguish between official  CSICOP  actions  and
those of its individual members.

     Originally it was expected that the required calculations of
Mars'  position at the time of birth of U.S.  champions (for  the
second  test)  would  be performed by  Prof.  Owen  Gingerich  of
Harvard  University.  But  during the summer of 1978 the  Harvard
astronomer  was  on an extended leave so Kurtz asked  Rawlins  to
perform the celestial mechanics computations.  Rawlins did so and
found  in sharp contrast to Gauquelin's findings that 22% of  the
European  champions  were  born  when Mars was  in  the  two  key
sectors,  and  compared to the "chance" benchmark figure of  17%,
only 13.5% of the U.S.  champions were born when Mars was in  the
two key sectors.  Thus, Rawlins' calculations showed that if Mars
had any effect on champions,  it was a pronounced NEGATIVE effect
for U.S. athletes.

     On  Sept,  18,  1978,  Rawlins  prepared a four-page  report
describing  the procedures he had used in his calculations and  a
summary  of the results.  But Rawlins could not resist  including
some   denigrating  charges  against  Gauquelin.   For   example:
"Gauquelin  was  well  known  in his teens  for  his  casting  of
horoscopes  (a practice he has since disowned)..."  The  comments
were both gratuitous and inappropriate.

     Relations  between  Rawlins and Gauquelin had been  strained
since   CSICOP  published  a  long,   rambling   Rawlins   attack
(Fall/Winter  1977) in which he accused Gauquelin of "misgraphing
the results of the Belgian Comite Para check on his Mars-athletes
link..." Gauquelin had responded with the charge that Rawlins had
distorted and misrepresented the facts in a letter which then was
scheduled to be published shortly in the Winter 1978 issue of THE
SKEPTICAL  INQUIRER.  The  same issue also would  carry  a  sharp
rejoinder from Rawlins.

     Thus  it  is  hardly surprising that Kurtz decided  that  it
would  be best if the upcoming summary report on the  results  of
the  U.S.  champions test should be written by Zelen,  Abell  and
himself  -- especially  since  the  three  of  them  had  jointly
authored  the  earlier  article and Abell had proposed  the  U.S.
test. If Kurtz instead had suggested that the U.S. champions test
report  be  jointly  authored  with  Rawlins  instead  of  Abell,
"sTARBABY" might never have been published.  This is evident from
numerous  Rawlins complaints in"sTARBABY." For  example,  Rawlins
complains that the day after Kurtz received his Sept.  18,  1978,
report  (with  the ad hominem attack on Gauquelin)  "Kurtz  wrote
Abell to suggest KZA (Kurtz,  Zelen and Abell) confer and prepare
the  test  report  for  publication  (EXCLUDING  ME)."  (Emphasis
added.) (P.79.)

     Rawlins  also complains that Kurtz asked Zelen and Abell "to
verify the work," i.e.  Rawlins' calculations. (P.80.) Because of
the  importance of test,  it was good scientific protocol to  ask
other  specialists to at least spot-check Rawlins'  computations.
Then  Rawlins  reveals  he  was  angered  because  "Abell   asked
countless  questions  about  my  academic  training."  (P.   8O.)
Inasmuch  as  Rawlins  lists his academic training  as  being  in
physics rather than astronomy, Abell's questions seem justified.

     Further  evidence  of Rawlins' wounded ego is his  complaint
that  "not only was Abell being invited to the  press  conference
(at the upcoming Council in Washington,  D.C.),  he was to be the
CSICOP spokesman on astrology in Washington." (P.81) Rawlins said
he "strongly protested the high-handedness of the choice of Abell
as  the speaker at the annual meeting...I emphasized that CSICOP
had  plenty of astronomers associated with it (Carl  Sagan,  Bart
Bok,  Edwin Krupp and others), all of them nearer Washington than
Abell  who  lived  all the way across the  country,  in  the  Los
Angeles area." (In fact, Krupp also lived in Southern California,
Bok  lived Arizona,  and Sagan then was working in California  on
his "Cosmos" television series.)

     In "sTARBABY," Rawlins claims that Abell had been invited to
speak  because "Kurtz was trying to suppress my dissenting report
(of Sept. 18, 1978) and (by not paying my travel fare) to keep me
from the December Council meeting while inviting to Washington as
a prominent CSICOP authority the very person whose appointed task
I HAD MYSELF PERFORMED" (his italics,  p.  81). In reality, there
was no question that Rawlins' Sept,  18, 1978, report, describing
his  analytical  procedures,  needed to be  published.  The  only
question  was whether it should include the ad hominem attack  on
Gauquelin.

     It was not until approximately one year AFTER the results of
the Zelen test were published in THE HUMANIST that Rawlins  first
charged  the  use  of "bait-and-switch"  tactics--what  he  calls
"BS"--had  been  employed.  This allegation was contained in  his
letter of Nov.  2,  1978,  to Zelen,  with a copy to  Kurtz.  BUT
RAWLINS  STILL DID NOT CHARGE THAT THIS AMOUNTED TO A "COVER-UP,"
OR  THAT CSICOP WAS INVOLVED.  Quite the opposite.  A  few  weeks
later  when  the Winter 1978 issue of THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER  was
published, there was a Rawlins response which said: "It SHOULD BE
CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT CSICP AS A BODY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO  DO
WITH  THE HUMANIST ZELEN TEST 'CHALLENGE'...PUBLISHED BEFORE  THE
COMMITTEE WAS FOUNDED"(Emphasis added.)

     Like  most members of CSICOP's Executive Council who had not
been involved either in the first (Zelen) test or the  subsequent
U.S.  champions  test,  and  who were not sufficiently expert  in
celestial  mechanics,  statistics  or astrology to take  a  prior
interest,  my  first exposure to the controversy came during  the
Council  meeting  in Washington in  early  December,  1978,  when
Rawlins  unleashed  a rambling harrangue.  Understandably  I  was
confused by Rawlins' charge that CSICOP somehow was involved in a
Zelen  test-results cover-up that had occurred more than  a  year
before  which  contradicted his just-published statement  in  THE
SKEPTICAL INQUIRER stating that the original Zelen test was NOT a
CSICOP-sponsored effort.

     Despite  my efforts to understand Rawlins'  allegations,  it
was not clear to me (and to many other Council members) just what
it was that he now was claiming had been"covered-up." After three
years of working with Rawlins I was well aware of his  proclivity
for  making  harsh,  exaggerated charges.  Most often these  were
directed  against supporters of the  para-normal,  but  sometimes
also against Council members who disagreed with his proposals for
intemperate actions against "the believers." For example, Rawlins
had charged that Truzzi was involved with the "Church of Satan."

Beyond  having  difficulty  in  understanding  the  specifics  of
Rawlins'  charges,  I  failed to grasp what he thought should  be
done to correct the alleged problem. Because the hour was getting
late and Council members had to leave to catch flights back home,
I  suggested to Rawlins that he write a memorandum  that  clearly
and  concisely  set forth the basic issues and that he  recommend
appropriate corrective action.  In this way Council members could
better  comprehend the matter and consider corrective  action  if
such were justified.  Rawlins cites this in "sTARBABY" and claims
he was the only party who had put the issues in writing.  BUT  HE
DID  NOT  SEND COPIES OF SUCH MEMORANDA TO COUNCIL  MEMBERS.  ONE
LOGICAL  EXPLANATION  FOR  THIS IS THAT  PREVIOUSLY  HE  DID  NOT
BELIEVE  THE MATTER INVOLVED CSICOP OR REQUIRED COUNCIL  MEMBERS'
ATTENTION.

     Rawlins was the last one to leave my apartment (where we had
been  meeting that night) and he continued his earlier  harrangue
but without clarifying the issues.  Later,  he called me from the
airport to continue the discussion. Again I asked that he clarify
the  issues  for  me  and other Council members  by  preparing  a
memorandum.  I assured Rawlins that since I had not been involved
in  either  of  the two tests and since  he  had  recommended  my
election to Council, he could expect me to be at least neutral if
not sympathetic.

     Rawlins never responded to my request. About six weeks later
(Jan. 17,  1979),  he  did circulate a five-page memo  to  CSICOP
Fellows and Council members. It was a "baby sTARBABY" which cited
a  number  of  ALLEGED  mistakes that had  been  made  by  OTHERS
involved  in the tests and in CSICOP's operations.  I replied  on
Jan.  31  saying  that  his memo was "for  me  an  unintelligible
jumble." I added: "without meaning to give offense to a friend, I
once again urge you -- as I did at our meeting here -- to outline
the  problem...then outline your recommendations.  And please  do
not assume,  as you have done, that all of us follow the G-affair
as  closely  as you have done." My letter  concluded:  "Skip  the
invective...outline  the problem clearly,  concisely,  and  offer
your recommendations."

     Rawlins never responded to this request. Today, following my
recent investigation,  I know why.  There was no cover-up, except
in Rawlins' troubled mind, fed by the fires of a wounded ego and,
perhaps,  by  embarassment over his unauthorized intervention  in
the  University  of  Toronto symposium.  Rawlins  was  unable  to
recommend  specific corrective action because nothing could  have
saved  his  wounded ego unless it were possible to turn back  the
clock  and  to have invited Rawlins to be the CSICOP  speaker  on
astrology  in  Washington  and to replace Abell  in  writing  the
report on the results of the U.S. champions test.

     Readers  of  "sTARBABY" might easily conclude  that  Rawlins
believes  that Zelen/Kurtz/Abell,  in the Nov/Dec.  1977 issue of
THE  HUMANIST,  should  have  conceded "Gauquelin  has  won"  and
cancelled plans for the U.S.  champions test.  Yet had they  done
so,  Rawlins  would have been outraged because such a  concession
would imply that the Zelen test had proved the Mars effect beyond
all  doubt  and  this was not true.  Had  Zelen/Kurtz/Abell  even
contemplated such a concession,  I am certain that Rawlins  would
have urged that they be ousted from CSICOP.

     "sTARBABY"  reveals that Rawlins imagines many  things  that
simply are not true,  such as his charge that I was involved in a
plot  to  suppress his discussions of the Gauquelin test  at  the
1978  Council meeting.  His article implies that Council meetings
are  characterized by attempts to suppress dissenting  views.  In
reality  one usually hears almost as many different viewpoints as
there  are  Council  members  present.  And  Kurtz  is  the  most
unconstraining  group  chairman I have ever known  in  the  many
organizations of which I have been a member.

     Even  on easily ascertainable matters,  Rawlins  chooses  to
rely  on his vivid imagination or recollections rather than  take
time  to check the facts.  For example,  in  "sTARBABY,"  Rawlins
claims  that  he  was  an "associate  editor"  of  THE  SKEPTICAL
INQUIRER,  as  well  as being a member of its editorial board  --
which he was [not].  Rawlins makes that claim in seven  different
places  in  his  article.  One  would expect that  a  person  who
imagines himself to be an associate editor of a publication  over
a  period  of  several  years would at least once  look  at  that
publication's masthead,  where its editorial staff is listed. Had
Rawlins done so he would not have made this spurious claim.

     This  is  not  an error of great  consequence.  But  when  I
pointed  it out to him,  his response was  revealing,  especially
because  he  accuses others of being unwilling to admit to  error
and  of  resorting to "cover-up." Rawlins' letter  of  Sept.  21,
1981, explained that at a Council meeting HELD FOUR YEARS EARLIER
he remembers that "Kurtz called all Ed.  Board members 'Associate
Editors'...I adopted to save syllables." Rawlins tries to justify
his misstatement of fact on the grounds that he was able to  save
approximately 42 characters in his 75,000-character-long article!

     In  "sTARBABY," Rawlins claims that the full-day meeting  of
the  Council  in Washington was held at the National  Press  Club
because  this was "the temple of CSICOP's faith."  (P.  86.)  Had
Rawlins  asked me,  I would have informed him that I had selected
the  National Press Club because it was the lowest-cost  facility
in downtown Washington that I could find.  But Rawlins decided he
knew the answer without bothering to investigate. This is neither
good science nor good journalism.

     In the previously cited Rawlins memorandum of Jan. 17, 1979,
following  the Washington meeting,  he wrote that he  planned  to
reduce  his involvement with CSICOP.  He added that there was  no
reason  to  "hide" CSICOP's problems "from the public.  So I  may
inform a neutral,  responsible, unsensational member of the press
re  the  foregoing." In reality Rawlins already  had  taken  such
steps  at  the December Council meeting whose press  seminar  was
attended  by  an experienced journalist with a known empathy  for
some  paranormal claims.  During the early afternoon Rawlins  and
this  journalist left the meeting together and returned  together
several hours later. But this journalist never published anything
on  the  matter,  possibly because he has as much  difficulty  in
understanding Rawlins' charges as did Council members.

     According  to "sTARBABY," in mid-1979,  Rawlins  received  a
letter from Jerome Clark of FATE magazine, expressing an interest
in  learning  more  about  Rawlins'  complaints  against  CSICOP.
Rawlins  claims that shortly afterward "I told the Council I'd be
open  with  FATE." I question the truthfulness of  his  statement
because Rawlins did not bother to attend the next Council meeting
in  December,  1979,  nor have I been able to locate any  Rawlins
letter or memorandum to substantiate this claim.

     "sTARBABY"  claims that "as the FATE-story  realization  set
in,  Council  reacted  like the White House when it learned  that
John Dean had sat down with the prosecution (during the Watergate
scandal). (P.91) This claim I know to be false. The prospect of a
Rawlins  article in FATE was never discussed at the 1979 or  1980
Council  meetings,  nor by memorandum during the two  intervening
years.  Otherwise CSICOP would have prepared a response which  it
could   have   released  immediately  following  publication   of
"sTARBABY,"  preventing  Rawlins from boasting  that  failure  of
CSICOP  to  respond  quickly  to his many  charges  indicated  an
inability to do so.

     Returning,  chronologically, to the fall of 1979, CSICOP was
preparing  to publish the results of the U.S.  champions test  in
the  Winter  1979-80  issue of THE  SKEPTICAL  INQUIRER.  Rawlins
demanded  the right to revise and expand his original  Sept,  18,
1978,   paper,  and  was  given  that  opportunity.  Furthermore,
according to "sTARBABY," Rawlins informed Ken Frazier,  editor of
THE SKEPTICAL  INQUIRER,  "that if there were any alterations not
cleared with me,  I wanted a note printed with the paper  stating
that  deletions  had occurred over the author's protest and  that
the  missing  portions could be obtained directly from  me."  (P.
92.)

     Frazier  (who  had  been  recommended for  the  position  by
Rawlins  himself),  acting  on the recommendation  of  Prof.  Ray
Hyman,  a  Council member who reviewed the Rawlins paper and  the
others,  and on Frazier's own long editorial experience,  decided
to delete the sentence referring to Gauquelin's earlier  interest
in  traditional astrology.  Frazier also opted to delete  another
sentence  that  read:  "In this connection I must also say  that,
given   the   self  piekill  upshot  (sic)  of   their   European
(nonchampions)   adventure   plus  their   failure   to   perform
independently  the  U.S.  study's technical  foundations  (sector
position,  expectation curve), I find it amusing that ZKA (Zelen,
Kurtz,  Abell)  are  the  main commentators on this test  in  THE
SKEPTICAL   INQUIRER."  Once  again  Rawlins'   wounded-ego   had
manifested itself.

     On Nov, 6, 1979, Rawlins sent a memo to other members of the
Editorial  Board  complaining that his article "has  been  neatly
censored  here  and there,  so I have asked to  add  a  statement
saying  so  and suggesting that readers who wish to  consult  the
original  version may do so by contacting me.  This sentence  has
itself  been  bowdlerized  (so that it reads as if  no  tampering
occurred)." Frazier had proposed an alternative  sentence,  which
was  published  at  the  end of the  Rawlins  paper,  that  read:
"Further  commentary  on the issues raised in this paper  and  in
these notes is available from the author." Rawlins' address  also
was published.

     This is the basis for Rawlins' harsh charges of "censorship"
against Frazier, the man whom he had so highly recommended for the
position.  If  Rawlins' complaint were justified,  every  working
journalist  could  make  the same accusations  regularly  against
those who edit his/her copy to assure clarity and good taste  and
to avoid libel. In response to Rawlins' charges, Frazier wrote to
members  of  the Editorial Board explaining what had  transpired.
Frazier noted,  "Dennis seems to believe his position as a member
of  the Editorial Board gives his writings special status  exempt
from normal editorial judgment.  None of the rest of you has ever
suggested this," i.e.  demanded privileged treatment.  So because
Rawlins   was  not  given  privileged   treatment,   he   charges
"censorship."

     In  the  same Nov.  6,  1979,  letter  charging  censorship,
Rawlins  complained  that he alone among Council members had  not
been  reimbursed for his travel expenses of $230 to the  previous
Council  meeting in Washington.  Rawlins said that he would  need
$400.00 for travel to attend the upcoming Council meeting in  New
York  and added "I won't do that unless all 63O dollars are  here
beforehand."  Kurtz  promptly sent Rawlins a check for $350 as  a
travel  advance  and  assured  him he  would  be  reimbursed  for
previous  travel  expense  as soon as  he  submitted  an  expense
account--which  Rawlins  had never done (In  "sTARBABY,"  Rawlins
characterizes  this  as  a  "ridiculous excuse"  for  failure  to
reimburse him earlier.) Rawlins cashed the $350 check but did not
attend  the  New  York Council meeting,  nor did  he  inform  the
Council that he would not attend. Rawlins never refunded the $120
difference  between $230 he claimed was due him and the  $350  he
received.   Yet  Rawlins  professes  to  have  been  shocked  and
surprised  when  the  Council voted unanimously  not  to  reelect
Rawlins  at its New York meeting.  (Since Rawlins seems so easily
shocked and surprised,  I suspect he was equally surprised at the
resignation of Richard M. Nixon.)

     Two months later,  Rawlins wrote to Frazier saying he wished
to  resign  from the Editorial Board.  But he insisted  that  the
resignation   should   not  take  effect  until   his   statement
complaining   about   not  being  reelected  "in  absentia"   was
published.  This  Rawlins statement claimed that he had not  been
reelected  solely  because he had  criticized  "CSICOP's  conduct
during  ITS  FOUR  YEAR INVOLVEMENT in testing  Gauquelin's  neo-
astrology..." (Emphasis added.)

     Had   Frazier  opted  to  publish  this  grossly  inaccurate
statement,  which he did not, readers might well have wondered if
there were really two different Dennis Rawlins,  recalling barely
a  year earlier when a Rawlins  letter had been  published  which
said:  "It  should  be clearly understood that CSICOP as  a  body
never   had   anything  to  do  with  the  Humanist  Zelen   test
'challenge'..." When Frazier accepted Rawlins' resignation,  this
prompted  Rawlins  to complain that he had been removed from  the
Editorial  Board  without  "cause  or  written  notice."   Later,
following  a  mail  ballot of  Council  members,  CSICOP  dropped
Rawlins  from its list of Fellows.  (The vote against Rawlins was
6:1.)

     The  foregoing  highlights the key issues and  actions  that
prompted  FATE and Rawlins to charge that CSICOP  "bungled  their
major  investigation,  falsified  the results,  covered up  their
errors  and gave the boot to a colleague who threatened  to  tell
the  truth." (After my investigation,  a re-reading of "sTARBABY"
gives  me  the  feeling  that  I  am  reading  a  Pravda  account
explaining  that the Soviets moved into Afghanistan to  help  the
Afghans  prevent  an invasion by the  U.S.  Central  Intelligence
Agency.)

     Were it possible to turn back the clock,  undoubtedly Kurtz,
Zelen  and  Abell would try to be more precise in  defining  test
objectives and protocol and would do so in writing. And more time
would  be spent in more carefully phrasing articles dealing  with
such tests. But all CSICOP Council members and Fellows have other
full-time professions that seriously constrain time available for
CSICOP efforts.

Were it possible to turn back the clock,  the Council should have
insisted  in  the  spring of 1978 that  Rawlins  issue  a  public
statement  that he had erred in using CSICOP's name in support of
his  personal actions connected with the University of  Toronto's
planned astrology symposium.  Failure to do this has resulted  in
an unjustified blot on CSICOP's modus-operandi. Also at that time
the  Council  should  have developed a policy  statement,  as  it
recently  did,  that  more  clearly  delineates  activities  that
members perform officially in behalf of CSICOP and those  carried
out as private individuals.

     When  a small group of persons met in Buffalo in May,  1976,
to create CSICOP, their motivation was a concern over the growing
public acceptance of claims of the paranormal. CSICOP was created
to  provide a counter-balance to those who espouse a  variety  of
claims,  ranging  from  UFOs  to  astrology,  from  the  "Bermuda
Triangle"  to psychic phenomena.  With the benefit of experience,
it was apparent that there was an extreme spectrum of  viewpoints
on the Council.  Rawlins was at the "hit-'em-hard" extreme, while
Truzzi  was  at  the opposite pole and resigned  after  a  couple
years,  partially  as  a result of behind-the scenes plotting  by
Rawlins  which he admits in "sTARBABY." Now Rawlins has  departed
and, in my view, CSICOP is much the better for it.

     CSICOP  never has tried to destroy those organizations  that
promote  belief in paranormal causes.  But individuals  in  these
organization have tried to discredit CSICOP, even going so far in
one instance as to circulate a forged letter.

     FATE   magazine  made  wide  distribution  of  the   Rawlins
"sTARBABY"  article  in reprint form,  together  with  its  press
release. Prof. R.A. McConnell, University of Pittsburgh, founding
President of the Parapsychological Association,  also distributed
copies  to CSICOP Fellows and Council members,  among others.  In
his accompanying letter,  McConnell said he believed the "Rawlins
report  is certainly true in broad outline and probably  true  in
every  detail...He  has created a document of importance for  the
history and philosophy of science." McConnell quoted an  "unnamed
scientist"  as  claiming that "Rawlins has uncovered the  biggest
scandal  in the history of rationalism." McConnell  characterized
CSICOP as "an intellectually dishonest enterprise."

     FATE  and McConnell have demonstrated the intrinsic flaw  in
the basic approach of those who promote claims of the  paranormal
-- THEIR  EAGERNESS  TO  ACCEPT CLAIMS  OF  EXTRAORDINARY  EVENTS
WITHOUT  RIGOROUS  INVESTIGATION.   Neither  FATE  nor  McConnell
contacted  CSICOP officials to check out Rawlins'  charges.  This
demonstrates why CSICOP is so sorely needed.

     The  late  President Harry Truman phrased it well:  "If  you
can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." CSICOP is "in the
kitchen" by choice and intends to remain there despite the  heat.
The response of CSICOP's Council and its Fellows to recent events
shows  that  the  Committee  is  not  an  easy  victim  of  heat-
prostration.

    If  the  Mars  effect,  or any other  paranormal  hypothesis,
should ever be demonstrated using rigorous scientific procedures,
there  simply is no way in which the small group  of  individuals
involved in CSICOP could ever hope to suppress such evidence. Nor
have  I  found  any  CSICOP Council member or Fellow  who  is  so
foolish as to try.

                              (end)

     [In the years following "sTARBABY", Rawlins has continued to
     receive   publicity   by  making  sensational   charges   of
     scientific  coverup  and fraud.  In 1988  he  made  national
     headlines  by renewing an earlier charge he had made  before
     CSICOP's founding,  this time supposedly supported by a new-
     found  document:  that Admiral Peary never actually  reached
     the  North  Pole during his famous expedition in  1909,  but
     instead  fabricated  his  navigational records  to  make  it
     appear as if he had. A New York Times article of October 13,
     1988 carries the headline:  "Peary's Notes Said to Imply  He
     Fell  Short  of  Pole." It begins:  "New evidence  based  on
     navigational  notes by Robert E.  Peary indicates  that  the
     Arctic  explorer  fell  short of his goal  and  deliberately
     faked  his  claim in 1909 that he was the  first  person  to
     reach  the  North  Pole,  according  to  an  analysis  by  a
     Baltimore  astronomer and historian ...  Dennis Rawlins,  an
     independent scholar who trained as an astronomer and who has
     a  long-standing  interest  in  Peary's   expedition,   said
     yesterday  that  his  analysis of  the  navigational  notes,
     mainly  sextant readings of the sun to establish  geographic
     position,  indicated  that  Peary knew that he had  come  no
     closer  than  121  miles from the Pole."  Officials  of  the
     National  Geographic  Society promised to  examine  Rawlins'
     data,  but added "We believe Mr.  Rawlins has been too quick
     to cry fake."

     After  a  three-month investigation of Rawlins'  charges,  a
     press conference was sponsored by The Navigation  Foundation
     at  which  they  dismissed  his  "sensational  claims".   As
     reported in a Baltimore Sun story syndicated Feb.  2,  1989,
     "Since October [Natl.  Geographic] Society President Gilbert
     M.  Grosvenor and others had quietly endured Rawlins' public
     calls  for  debate and unconditional surrender on the  Peary
     issue."  The  Society  was  willing  to  take  seriously  an
     analysis  by the British explorer Wally  Herbert,  based  on
     other  evidence,  that  a navigation error may  have  caused
     Peary  to miss the pole by about 45 miles.  "Suggesting that
     Peary  might not have reached the Pole is one  thing,"  said
     Grosvenor.  "Declaring  Peary  a  fraud is  quite  another."
     Rawlins held his own "informal press conference" afterwards,
     reports The Sun,  in which Rawlins "admitted he had confused
     time  readings for chronometer checks with altitudes of  the
     sun and had mistaken serial numbers on the chronometers  for
     navigational    observations."   Rawlins    conceded,    "My
     interpretation  has some problems,  and I acknowledge  that.
     It's  fair to say that,  if I'm saying Peary was a fraud,  I
     think I have not yet met the burden of proof."

     Finally,  in December,  1989, a 230-page report commissioned
     by the National Geographic Society was released,  concluding
     that  Peary  actually did reach the Pole.  As reported in  a
     story on p.1 of the New York Times,  Dec.  12,  1989,  a new
     analysis  of  Peary's  records  by  professional  navigators
     concluded  that  Peary's final camp was not more  than  five
     miles from the Pole. "The report said, there was no evidence
     of  fraud and deception in the explorer's records.  But  one
     critic,   Dennis   Rawlins,   a  Baltimore  astronomer   and
     historian,  said  he  remained convinced,  despite  the  new
     study,  that  Admiral  Peary did not reach his goal and  had
     faked his claim."

                   Robert Sheaffer, Nov., 1991 ]

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!rutgers!mcnc!borg!monet!davidson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why should the Govt. censor UFO information
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 20:29:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 47
Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:15262 alt.alien.visitors:6065

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John A. Weeks III) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bruce Edwards) writes:
>> The thing that has always amazed mthat if the government couldn't hide
>> Watergate, or Iran/Contra or any of thother myriad of leaks that come out
>> of it ..why do people think that they would be any more sucessful hiding
>> UFO information especially when the "leaker" is most certainly going to
>> experience a great deal of profit from any number of magazines, talk shows,
>> tabloids, books, T-shirts, action toys, etc., etc., etc.

The government is not very successful at hiding UFO information.  It's
just that the public is never going to see any UFO reports on mainstream
news media because no reporter is going to risk losing his job by
reporting something as "absurd" and "loony" as UFOs.  Similarly, many
people who see UFOs are unwilling to report them for the same reason.
Most people are not willing to take the risk of losing a respectable job to
go on the UFO fanatic fringe lecture circuit.  UFOs are a self-keeping
secret.  Thanks to the government campaign of ridicule.

>A great deal of material obtained under the freedom of information act
>on the UFO subject is blacked out.  So we know the government is keeping
>secrets on UFOs.  The big question is exactly what are they keeping
>secret, and how much info do they really have on the subject.  Perhaps
>they are actually hiding the ultimate proof that UFOs are not alieans
>in ships, but they cannot release this info because the methods used to
>obtain the info is secret.

I think this is a big reason why the NSA/CIA etc don't want to release
*anything* about UFOs... it will expose to foreign nations what
communications of theirs we monitor.  For example, if a UFO crashes in
The Enemy's country, and the enemy covers it up and only discusses the
event at the highest levels of security, and the NSA knows about it and
releases the info (but with all the technical details edited out), then
obviously "they" will realize that we can monitor their communications.
This is the problem with *unique* events like UFOs -- just describing the
event *itself* (without saying anything about the method of info
collection) will tip the NSA's hand as to what communication is secure
and which is not.

The above paragraph in no way implies that I think UFO information should
remain secret.

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Signal to Noise Ratio
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 20:45:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Lines: 42

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:
>                     A RESEARCH POSSIBILITY

>     Has anyone out there thought about bringing the channelers
>together with scientific researchers?

>to  emerge as a area of interest to everyone.   Since this time,
>1990, I have encountered some interesting work being done with
>channeling that is of a somewhat scientific nature.  These friends
>are doing work with structures similar to pyramids, much more
>complex, but similar.  They channel for the Ashtar Command.  I know
>some of you really don't like this stuff but open your minds!  Some
>of the information is scientifically valid!
>     The point is, is anyone doing this kind of research?

Yes and no.  Paranormal researchers are always studying channellers and
mediums, and many UFO researchers seem to believe a lot of the
channelled UFO material such as the Pleiadeans' diatribes.  Are
physicists studying this stuff?  In general, no.

I have been reading a great deal of the channelled material that has
been made available here and through other sources.  I don't
necessarily agree that I see much that is "scientifically valid".
Some?  Sure, like comments about Earth having a magnetic field, and
there being gaps in our knowledge about evolution.  But other stuff?
Like what?

However, it WOULD be interesting to monitor channellers in a lab
setting, and see what info is produced, maybe ask some "scientific
questions", and publishh the results.  If anything beyond vague
channelled verbosity emerged, it would be very interesting.



>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>dumb stuff here@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>[e-mail] ===============>
--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!ducvax.auburn.edu!lab22!forrepr
From: [e-mail] (Philip R. Forrest)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 22:30:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Lines: 68
Nntp-Posting-Host: lab22.eng.auburn.edu

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>[e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
>
>>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>> If there are SOOO many alien civilizations out there, WHY OH WHY WON'T
>>> THEY LAND IN A MAJOR CITY DURING DAYLIGHT SO THE REST OF US POOR MORTALS
>>> CAN MEET THEM?!
>>>
>
>>Here's a really dumb, obvious question I've always
>>wanted to ask, after years of searching the skies unsucessfully
>>for ufo's:
>>    OK. People see ufo's all the time, and take pictures of them, etc.
>>Ufo's are seen as lights moving around un the sky.
>>These aliens have been able to navigate here through incomprehensible
>>distances in space and/or time, so, WHY do they fly with their lights
>>on? I mean, what do they need the lights for?? They can't need them
>>to see where they're going. And if their ships, in the course  of
>>operating, emit light, can't they cloak the light (like the Klingons).
>
>Klingons do not do abductions and genetics experiments.
>It is without honor. They also endeavor to keep the
>cloaking device secret from those without honor.
>
>In the future, though, who knows. Maybe they'll give it to Canada.
>;-)
>
>Seriously, though, that's a good point.
>
>Also, if they don't wish humans to remember abductions (just
>playing along for a sec.) then _why_ don't they use a general
>anesthetic of some sort? I don't think there's a hypnotic regression
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...damn good point...

>technique in the world that would recover memories from _that_...
>

If the aliens can read the abductees' minds, they must know from some
abductees that they (the abductees) have had hypnotic regression done which
has found them (the aliens) out. Given that, why do the aliens continue
to block memories knowing that those memories can be recalled at will using
hypnotic regression ?

Given the number of 'abductees', and the number of reports from female
abductees that the aliens are impregnating them, there must surely be a
female abductee out there somewhere who has given birth to her desired
number of human children. Why then, doesn't this abductee go and get a
hysterectomy done ?? I know this sounds like a radical step. It would, however,
give this woman a chance to exert some power over the source of her mental
torment. It would definitely send a "***k You !" message to the aliens.
Once the aliens found out she had a hysterectomy, it would make future
abductions pointless.

Also, why hasn't any UFO researcher placed devices around the homes of
abductees (given that said abductees are continually taken) that measure
changes in both electrical and magnetic fields ? The abductees always seem
to say that the power in the house goes off prior to an abduction. The
devices could be rigged so that the readings are printed to a tape of paper
so no one could use the excuse, "well, the device's memory must have been
erased."

---

Phil Forrest
03 ME
Auburn University
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!barry
From: [e-mail] (Barry Kitson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 02:24:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: world,local
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[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>may be onto something big!

    Just ask your average cockroach.  I don't believe his (or her)
antennae were constructed by any process involving a true conductor, or
indeed a true cellist, a true bassoonist or a true trumpeter.  And on
human scales, these antennae should not be considered "big"!  (Exactly how
you get "onto" them is your own business.)  Such distortion of the
Truth(pat pend.) seems extremely unethical to say the least.

    Try to be more specific next time,

        Barry.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psgrain!percy!parsely!agora!krowell
From: [e-mail] (Keith Rowell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: DR. JAMES HARDER WARNS AGAINST TACTICS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 May 92 18:53:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Greg Larson) writes:
>> This is an interesting point of view.  When Budd Hopkins first came out
>> with his almost entirely negative attitude toward alien intentions, I
>> guess my response was to sort of brush it off as being his way of
>> somehow achieving more credibility (i.e., he doesn't have the motivation
>> of "wanting them to exist").
>> Later, with the very negativistic book published by Dr. Jacobs,
>> I have found myself thinking, unhappily, that perhaps they are right after
>> all, and "what the hell is our government doing protecting these SOBs,
>> anyway?", and with the screen play of "Intruders", have finally begun
>> to think "well if there are ANY well-intentioned ET's out there, they
>> had better make their intentions known in a hurry, because this idea
>> of the _negative E.T._ is catching on fast in the public consciousness".
>> I've even pondered that perhaps these authors are promulgating this
>> opinion so as to force some sort of government disclosure.
>>
>
>> Any other serious opinions on all this?
>
>Not an iron-clad opinion yet, but some data that may interest you.
>I have talked personally to 23 people who claim to have been abducted --
>this is not including the dozens of people at UFO conferences. Of these
>23, about 3 or 4 have a positive or spiritual attitude on the aliens,
>feel they are Space Brothers, etc. However, these 3 or 4 have not
>really related detailed abduction memories -- so it is possible they
>have not really been abducted at all.
>
>Of the remaining people, who do have detailed memories either from
>spontaneous recall or from hypnosis, the abduction scenarios were
>very similar to what is shown in *INTRUDERS*, the mini-series. Most of
>these people -- at least 18 or 19 -- show obvious stress concerning
>the experiences, and some of them appear to have full-blown Post
>Traumatic Stress Disorder.
>
>I have heard a lot of people, including Dr. Sprinkle, talk about
>nice aliens and pleasant abductions, and how the visitations have
>a positive and helpful nature. I have to say that so far, based on
>the first-hand accounts I have heard, that opinion is hard to
>subscribe to.
>
>Regards, Lou Crago

Like Lou, I have talked personally to a number of typical UFO abductees
in the past few years, around 15. My experience is the same as his and
I support his statements above. And, if the Intruders Foundation Roper
Poll is anywhere near correct that around 2% of the adult population in
the US may be abductees, we have a serious national problem on our hands.
This "impossible" result needs further examination very soon from the
academic community, which has so far gravely failed their responsibilities
with respect to UFOs and UFO abductees. Perhaps the 1990s will be the
decade when the establishment finally does confront the UFO problem.

Keith Rowell
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze UFO on TV
Message-ID: <1992May27.194231.10328@anasaz>
Date: 27 May 92 19:42:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mako) writes:
->In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
->(Anna Anderson) writes:
->
->> Houston TV station KHOU has been doing nightly specials on the
->> news all this week as part of the "Intruders" special.
->
->> They sent a camera crew to Gulf Breeze, Florida to interview the
->> locals. However they got more than they hoped for, as several times
->> this week they captured a UFO on video tape, and broadcasted it to the
->> Houston area.
->
->> One night it showed the crowd there flashing a large spotlight at the
->> UFO, and cheers as it responded with flashes. The UFO was reported to
->> be in the restricted air space of the huge Air Force base near Pensacola.
->> It was said to be verified that no military or commercial aircraft
-0>> were in the area at the time, and no radar contact made.
->
->> The news report said that the Jet Propulsion Lab in California asked
->> for and were given the tapes for study.
->
->> Anna
->
->I take it that Gulf Breeze, Florida, has a history of sightings.  This is
->a fascinating story.  Can anyone tell me more about this?  Feel free to
->reply via e-mail...
->
Me too.  Who are the journalists who saw/taped this, what do they report
publicly and what does "said to be verified" mean?  Who (does anyone know)
at JPL requested the tapes?

>Mako
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Julian Hayashi-Marsano/A Festive Latin with Warm Asiatic Tendencies       PF
>e-mail: [e-mail]                                          RULES
>"Why, no, I consider myself to have won a victory for the comic mews..."E.M.F.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news
From: [e-mail] (Gregory M. Henzie)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 03:50:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Gregory M. Henzie)
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (They're Hereeeee!!) writes:
>[e-mail] (Gary "the loon" Stollman) says:

           [ Gary's overly long and rambling delusion deleted. ]

>Gee Gary, if these aliens posess the abilities you say they do, then
>why is it that you think bluemoon.rn.com is safe?  Why....they could be
>attempting to controll you through your monitor right now!

Heheh, Ever read RFCxxxx [Something or another, it's in the rfc-index], the
TELNET SUBLIMINAL OPTION?

Unfortunately, Crazy Gary has been a subject for beta testing of the ENHANCED
TELNET SUBLIMINAL OPTION, and it works all too well :)

Gary: get a good lawyer, you may be able to sue them for mind invasion :)

>(errie '50's sci-fi music, as the picture fades.....)



--
"All you people of Earth are IDIOTS!"           | [e-mail]
                   -Eros                        | All opinions expressed herein
                   "Plan Nine From Outer Space" | are solely mine!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 01:09:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <11805@ntdd> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 46
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10304 alt.alien.visitors:6072 sci.skeptic:24608

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise) writes:
>In article <11805@ntdd> [e-mail] (Rolf Meier) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise) writes:
>>
>>>I get so sick of this kind of childish, mean, ego-masturbation!
>>>If you don't like something, fine! Don't! But save your smart cracks
>>>for your little friends and keep it out of our faces!
>>
>>Actually, many of us like the stuff about the Pleiadians.  It's just
>>that it is a lot of crap, not worthy of any serious consideration
>>whatsoever.  This does not mean, however, that it lacks humor.
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>Rolf Meier                    Mitel Corporation
>
>Rolf, you mis read me. The reason I underlined the previous posters
>comment was because he was calling names at the people posting
>things like the Pleidian Transcripts. I enjoy reading them too.
>I just get so angry when people get so self-righteous and start
>swearing at posters who put controversial material on the board.
>We're on the same side here.
>


You're using common sense again Denise :-)

Thanks for the comment..it was the most intelligent response yet to
this thread.

Just for anyone else on this thread..you might have great fun reading
Don's posts but from time to time he does post a tape list and
he always mentions Barbara Marciniak's address..you *don't* have to
blindly believe anyone but consider doing your own research. Also,
most libraries carry a whole book set of "authors in print" and under
the "UFO" heading you'll find a list of books written by Wendelle
Stevens on the Pleiadians that you might find interesting..

I even see that Shaeffer has his book listed (only one?) :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Keywords: physics, spoons
Message-ID: <2k4khr#[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 04:53:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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>|> >In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>|> >|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>|> >|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) wri
>|>
>|> No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
>|> The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.
>
>   Recalling some freshman physics classes about EM I do recall that
>   a solution rich in salt will conduct electricity. I believe that you
>   can even make a weak battery out of sea water because of this property.
>   And isn't blood very rich in salt. So wouldn't blood be a very weak
>   conductor as sea water is? This of course is just a guess though.......

I have not said that blood is not an ionic solution, and neither have I said
that ionic solutions do not conduct. I have and will state again that there
is a whole lot more to the human body than blood. Further, if you do have
blood on the outside, seek medical attention. :^)

BTW, I have no idea -if- blood conducts well at all. Does anyone? Endless
speculation would seem to be getting us nowhere.

And further, skin conduction is mostly caused by sweat, another ionic solution.
You can even generate a weak voltage with meter probes. Some sort of a
galvanic reaction it would seem. This does not make the body a conductor
either.

>|> Neither are wood or walls. And I also see ethical problems in stating
>|> things you know to be untrue because you think the target audiance will be
>|> unaware of the deception. If the truth (as you know it) cannot support
>|> your argument, perhaps you aught to re-think it?
>
>   Okay now on to the unethical comment. How unethical is this? I don't
>   think it is that unethical at all. Take an example of a freshman level
>   physics class. When you are first introduce to Newtonian mechanics
>   you are told they govern the world as we know it. Now that is a false

It is true you know. There is almost nothing in everyday life that requires
QM or relativity to explain. (Unless you work at a lab somewhere :^). Until
you get real close to the sun, Newton works just fine for planetary calculations
And the difference is small even for Mercury.

>   statement, what about quantuam mechanics. But in teaching you try and
>   introduce the simpler things first and build up to the complicated.

But they do not, in simplification, tell untruths. I have often reached
the point where I was out of my depth while posting, and learned a bit from it.
Work with what you know, ask honest questions (this can be difficult if it
sounds like a stupid question), and if you cannot support your position, then
try to integrate the information that comes out of the posting. Often much of it
will be unverifyable, but this is true for much of our education.

>   Probably most of the people in that newsgroup aren't very scientific
>   so any help in understanding is nice.
>
>|> But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>|> may be onto something big!
>
>   This was just a low blow. Very unprofessional.......

I do not see this. Please explain. I would like to point out that at this
point, it seemed that the meaning of the word conductor was not the same
for all involved. It may still be the case.

>|> Ever heard of a microwave oven? I think you are talking about the same
>|> effect. And it has nothing to do with ions. Pure water is heated just as
>|> well as salt/whatever water. While I do not recall exactly, the effect if
>|> due to the hydrogen atoms in water absorbing the microwave energy. The
>|> additional energy is expressed as heat, there not being enough energy for
>|> the hydrogen to break the bonds (covalent I think, but I am unsure) which
>|> holds then to the oxygen. Chemistry is not my field, so I have not
>|> expressed this clearly, but I think it is fundamentally correct.
>
>   What is the comment about the microwave oven about. I'm sorry I don't
>   see how you came from a discussion about the human bodies interaction
>   with EM waves to a microwave oven.

Again you chopped the text that this was in response to. It basically
stated that the human body reacts to microwave radiation. I agree, but
not because the body is a conductor. Conductors tend to reflect microwaves.
Hence we have radar, and do not put metal in microwave ovens. It's bad
for the maggie.

>|>
>|> Rich
>|>
>|> [e-mail]
>
>   COME ON, the kid is an undergraduate ( as I am so please excuse any large
>   mistakes. I've only taken one EM course so far.) I admire him for at least
>   trying to get rid of a lot of the mystical/new age stuff many people are
>   heading for these days.

Well, I do not believe in the value of arguments from authority. So I neither
ask for or offer qualifications. If the point is valid, and supported, it
will probably stand a little critical observation. If not, usually you will
get some new input after expressing it. My problem is I tend to argue a bit
too harshly at times. I am working on it however.

>   I imagine there will of course be a lot of criticism on me too. Oh well
>   I probably need to learn to keep my mouth shut.....
>
>                       -Tripp

They say that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be imagined a fool
than to open it and prove it. I think that this is the best way to remain
a fool.

Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (John Whitmore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 05:22:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:

>The BIG controversy is in Low-freqeunyc (50-70 Hz) fields, not high
>frequency effects.  Those are well known.  For example, beam a 100Watt
>signal at 2.5 GHz at a person, and they cook!.

    Untrue.  Basal metabolism is 75W, and a healthy human can
easily shed an order of magnitude more than that as waste heat (perhaps
shedding a garment or too in the process).  There's NOTHING magical
about 2.5 GHz, except that it was available for use when microwave
ovens appeared on the market.

    If you can concentrate the microwave flux in an extremity,
or some part of the body that is not well served with blood flow,
you could cause a burn: the cornea of the eye is the only candidate
for such tissue damage, at low power levels, that I am aware of.

    John Whitmore
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 05:17:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>Hate to escalate what has obviously just become a flame war, but ...
>
>In article <s=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>|>
>|> No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
>|> The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.
>
>Aren't we feeling a bit anal today?  Tell me, if I said dielectric constant
>to the group on alt.alien.visitors, do you think everyone reading the
>board would have the background to have even the foggiest what the heck
>I was saying?  NO.  Conductance, yes.  I did the best I could.

OK, this is getting nowhere. So I'll take the initiative and drop it here.

>|> But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>|> may be onto something big!
>
>None of my article or references have been about the construction
>of antennas, only disturbances of EM-waves.  My articles have never
>even assumed that the waves actually WERE ever being received.

Sorry, I picked it directly off your list of insulators. Drop # 2.

>|> >|> Try again. What we have is stray capacitance detuning loosly coupled
>|> >|> resonant circuits.
>
>|> >I'm sure there is at least one person out of the hundreds reading this
>|> >group that understands that statement.  Ou, nope, they got him, never mind.
>|>
>|> I think that you'd be surprised. Either that, or I'd be dissapointed.
>
>Again, this thread originates in alt.alien.visitors, NOT sci.physics.
>Revise your estimate.

Perhaps we should both make minor adjustments? :^)

>|> >|>                                                           .... None
>|> >|> of these effects are in any way due to the ionic content of the cells/
>|> >|> blood.
>|> >
>|> >So your saying the human body does not interact with EM-wave to any
>|> >extent?  I happen to know that you can pick up a human body of extremely
>|> >shortwave radar (10 cm wl or so).
>|>
>|> Ever heard of a microwave oven? ...
>
>Microwave oven....  oh, uhhh... no, they call that a toaster....
>ah, no ... that's a conventional oven ... no, cupboard...
>
>You obviously have nothing better to do than to be insulting.

First you claim that I am "anal", then that "I" am being insulting. Lets
call it even OK?

>I realize how microwave ovens work and since I have taken an
>advanced course in molecular spectroscopy probably know a substantially
>amount more than Mr. Wizard Yourself about their excitation of water.

First you omit my disclaimer that I am out of my field, then you make
remarks like "Mr. Wizard Yourself". It's easy to be insulting. But I think
that you have lost any reasonable claim of being the injured party by now.
Let's -both- be calm shall we?

>Interestingly though, the shortwave radar to microwave spectrum
>can also be used as an imaging system, and was early on in the days
>of radar development.  At the time, pilots actually complained of heating
>of metal components in their planes.  (no this is not BS)

This is news to me. I wonder if the pilots were getting cooked to some
extent as well.

>|> >|> >I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
>|> >|> >physicists...
>|> >|>
>|> >|> I'd encourage those interested to study the electronics first.
>|> >
>|> >Physicists like to believe that nearly everything falls under physics.
>|>
>|> I'm not sure what this comment has to do with anything. Perhaps you can
>|> elucidate?
>
>You honestly don't see the connection?  Wow.

Conduction, which was where I came in, seems clearly in the domain of physics.
And electronics (where antenna's come in) is more or less a subset of modern
physics. And I suggested studying the electronics, not physics. Why not just
tell me the tie-in? While it does not seem to follow from what I said, physics
does seem to appropriate for almost everything covered so far. The exception
would be the body. But again, where is the tie-in to the "everything under
physics" comment.

>Maybe you did try that electrode thing after all...

If you must go to extremes to -be- insulting, please have the good grace to
refrain from complaining about it.

>                    - Jeff

Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 05:25:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry Kitson) writes:
>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>>may be onto something big!
>
>    Just ask your average cockroach.  I don't believe his (or her)
>antennae were constructed by any process involving a true conductor, or
>indeed a true cellist, a true bassoonist or a true trumpeter.  And on
>human scales, these antennae should not be considered "big"!  (Exactly how
>you get "onto" them is your own business.)  Such distortion of the
>Truth(pat pend.) seems extremely unethical to say the least.
>
>    Try to be more specific next time,
>
>        Barry.
>


Very humourous. And 100% context free! With a little context, it makes
perfect sense. Try to edit more carefully next time. No, try to edit
for -meaning- next time.

Perhaps with a little work, you might have material for alt.humor.

Imagine, I chopped the proper sentence from your reply, I could come up
with an equally meaningless response. But I do not see that it would solve
anything. It might provoke some petty flame war.


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 05:59:51 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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In article <s=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.

Don't tell Leonard Bernstein. The rest of us are poor conductors; there
is absolute resistivity that defines a conductor. We're somewhere between
semi-conductors and metals, closer to metals if the state has a nasty
circuit to complete.

>
>due to the hydrogen atoms in water absorbing the microwave energy. The
>additional energy is expressed as heat, there not being enough energy for
>the hydrogen to break the bonds (covalent I think, but I am unsure) which
>holds then to the oxygen. Chemistry is not my field, so I have not

Nor physics by that account.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Summary: Not that mystical
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 21:07:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
> I really wish someone would get off their duffer and do some real investigating
> on the topic of electromagnetic fields surrounding the body, so the whole
> subject can be demystified.

     Where electromagnetic fields have, many people already have, the
information is available.

> Here's an interesting experience.  I was sitting on the floor a short way
> from the TV, playing with a broken piece of metal antenna while watching
> channel 10.  I kept on getting poor reception and could figure out for the
> life of me why ... until I move the metal away from my head.
>
> When I moved it away, the reception became clear, when I moved it back, the
> reception went haywire the very instant the antenna got to within 1/2" of my
> skull.  It was not only repeatible, but it was in fact rather easy to
> control after some practice.
>
> It only happened for this channel, no others.  It only happened when I was
> positioned in a certain general area of the room, and it only happened when
> the antenna was positioned within 1/2" of my head ... not any other body part,
> just the head.

     The antenna piece happened to resonate near channel ten.  Your body being
a non-perfect conductor absorbed RF energy effeciently when the piece of
antenna was brought near it.
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From: [e-mail] (Little Kenny Hamer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 06:27:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA
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>|> No, conductor is the word that was used, conductance was not used at all.
>|> The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.
>

Yes, in fact, the water (blood or not) in the human body does conduct
electricity very well and is, therefore, a conductor.  It is perfectly
valid if not nit-pickingly technically correct to call the human body a
conductor.

Here's a simple experimant to prove this.  aquire a multitestor.  grab
one probe in each hand.  notice that the resistance drops when you grab
the leads as opposed to when the leads are not touching each other in midair.
the resistance would be even less if you were to stick the leads though
you skin ino your flesh.  better contact.

of couse, pure h2o is not a conductor.  it is the impurities that allow
the water in our bodys to act as conductors or antennas.

If you still don't agree, then plug in an extension cord, cut the end off,
grab it, and step into a bathtub full of water.  write from the hospital.

-ken
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From: [e-mail] (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 10:09:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 45
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leo Waltz)  writes:
>(References on Reich's Orgone theory)
>>    I remember a number of years back, that my brother ordered a copy of
>>the patent on a machine, which I vaguely rembember being called
>>something like Hieronomous, but it's hard to remember 30 years back.
>>We also made a "blanket" which consisted of alternate layers of organic
>>and inorganic material for a total of about seven layers (I forget the
>>exact composition, but think it was steel wool and sheep wool).  Anyway
>>the energy reflection back was surprising to put it mildly.  Knowing my
>>brother, he still has the material (and everything else he accumulated
>>over the past 40 years)!

>I really wish someone would get off their duffer and do some real investigating
>on the topic of electromagnetic fields surrounding the body, so the whole
>subject can be demystified.

>Here's an interesting experience.  I was sitting on the floor a short way
>from the TV, playing with a broken piece of metal antenna while watching
>channel 10.  I kept on getting poor reception and could figure out for the
>life of me why ... until I move the metal away from my head.

>When I moved it away, the reception became clear, when I moved it back, the
>reception went haywire the very instant the antenna got to within 1/2" of my
>skull.  It was not only repeatible, but it was in fact rather easy to
>control after some practice.

>It only happened for this channel, no others.  It only happened when I was
>positioned in a certain general area of the room, and it only happened when
>the antenna was positioned within 1/2" of my head ... not any other body part,
>just the head.

I get this all the time with FM radio.  The body affects and is affected by
electromagnetic fields.  I'd really like to enclose my whole house in a
Faraday cage, just in case any of it is harmful.  Never would I buy a house
within 1/2 mile of overhead high tension power lines, but that's mostly
paranoia.  Anybody compared Kirlian photos of objects with&without various
electromagnetic field generating devices in the vicinity?

+----Great Quotes of our Time----------------------------------------+
|        A failed chocolate souffle makes an attractive beret        |
+-------------------------------------------Sandra Boynton-----------+
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England  (44)061-275-6033  |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!barry
From: [e-mail] (Barry Kitson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 07:29:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry Kitson) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>>>may be onto something big!
>>
>>    Just ask your average cockroach.  I don't believe his (or her)
...
[Snip]

>Very humourous. And 100% context free!
                          ^^^^^^^
    Then maybe you see the point.  If we're going to be pedantic,
(which is not such a bad quality for a physicist) then it would be nice
if we could at least show some sensitivity to the context of the
conversation, and remain polite.  If people don't understand, or don't
know the terminology, a lack of patience will tend to alienate them.
Polite explanation, on the other hand, may actually improve the
image of physics.

        Barry.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Interesting Klass Item
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 01:20:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
> * Originally from Michael Corbin
> * Originally dated 05-26-92 20:16
>
>UFO LANDS IN KLASS' BACKYARD
>
>Just when Phil Klass thought he was making headway into exterminating UFO-
>mania, it appears that it may have caught its "second-wind."  In this month's
>Aviation Week and Space Technology, the magazine that Phil Klass is avionics
>editor for, there appears a curious advertisement.  This full page ad shows the
>infamous Daniel Fry UFO picture with a sub-caption that states:  ONE OF THE FEW
>AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS WE HAVEN'T WORKED WITH.  YET.
>
>It just goes to show you, Phil, if you can't beat 'em, maybe you ought to
>consider joining 'em.
>
>--
>Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

Hehehe...

Yer such a pip, Mike.. :-)

Gee and I always thought that KlASS was "out of this world" :^_)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 01:16:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:
>In a message to All <24 May 92 18:06> Gary Stollman wrote:
>
> GS>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????
>
>I believe EVERY WORD, and I'm delighted to hear about Joan!
>
>When's the date?
>
>Best,
>  Clark
>
>
>--
>Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

You do?!

My..we're going to have to have you come on in and adjust that implant
again :-))

(Just kidding)

By the way, where have you been lately? Haven't seen you around too
much on the echoes.

Can you send email from your node or is that possible?

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Search for Yourselves-Pleiadians 5
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:14:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <11805@ntdd>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 7
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I just realized we will be losing many of our readers due to school getting out.
So,  because this may be their only chance to get direct et communication, I am
going to post all the Pleiadian articles I have ready.  So if you have a problem
with it put my name in your kill file like most of the skeptics have already
done.
Love
Don
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Language of Light Geometry-Pleiadians6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:37:17 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 305
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FYI Last year I offered email transcripts of the Pleiadian tapes entitled
Harmonics of Frequency Modulation and the Human DNA.  Over 135 net folks
requested copies. Many replied that they enjoyed them and asked for more.
Barbara Marciniak and the editor of Connecting Link magazine have given me
permission to scan and post the Pleiadian Connecting Link articles.
Don Showen

A Conversation with the Pleiadians

Excerpted from the tape:

Language of Light Geometry

    We are here. We would like to discuss with you the language of light
and the geometric form and how they dance around you continuously. We would
like also to tie this into your dream state. We would like to also speak about
the unseen energy that is around you, that makes up a gridwork of your being.
If you know a little bit more about it, it [will] allow you to create and to
bring into your sphere of activity, that which you are wanting.
    Much is going on continuously around you that you cannot see. There
has been an acceleration of what are called avatars-masters, energy beings
that have infused your system. They are permeating your world, assisting the
raising of consciousness.
    When we speak that the avatars and masters have permeated the gridwork
of the world, they bring with them their own tools for teaching. The tools
that are being utilized on your planet are artifacts that are not of your
dimension. They are symbolic forms, but, literally, they have a life of their
own and they make up what is known as the language of light.
    You are implanted with a structure, a geometric form, and that
geometric form triggers certain information within you. It is a way of
receiving information and energy that will facilitate your development. It is
learning without thinking that you have to do it all through books, or
thinking that you have to do it all through the intellect. It is opening to
the belief that there is indeed an immense hierarchy. Immense beyond your
comprehension, that has been working with the dear humanities since the very
beginning.
    This hierarchy works with love, cherishes who you are, and has been
able to see through the time mechanisms that are keyed throughout your planet.
They have been able to read that the consciousness is ready for the
evolutionary leap.
    The next step in the evolutionary leap as you, yourselves, are all
mutating, is to literally implant you with a geometric form. You are mutating
to such an extent that literally it is a process unfolding within you that
will allow you to move into another realm of experience. Each humanity on the
planet has the potentiality to move through this mutation. Many will stop the
process because many do not have the desire to align themselves with higher
consciousness. When you are aware of a Divine Consciousness that seeds your
planet, an intellect that is so vast, that is loving, that works with you, and
when you call to be a portion of [that consciousness], that is when you bring
to yourself an implanting of the geometric form.
    The forms that are implanted come in a variety of shapes. There is the
use of the geometric form of pyramid structure. Why is the pyramid so
important? We will tell you that on your planet, and throughout the cosmos,
the pyramid structure is utilized to represent a great unity of consciousness.
It is the structure that is most difficult to create in all of its many
facets, and yet it is a structure of perfection. It is a structure of using
energy and sending it outward.
    The structure of the sphere will also be used to be implanted inside
of you. The structure of the spiral. The spiral is very dear to many of you.
Many of you have sojourned within cultures and societies where the spiral was
utilized to communicate many ideas. There will be the structure of the
parallel lines. There will be the structure of the cube. And, of course, the
structure for those who know of the merkabah vehicle. That is the five sided
figure.
    QUESTION: Could you talk more about the five sided figure you just
mentioned?
    PLEIADIANS: The five sided figure represents the figure of man. It
represents man in his most unlimited state. Man totally free. It is man in his
design without any limitations. It is man being able to fly, which is
something that a large majority of you do not think you can do. Yet that is an
implant that comes after a while when one truly commits themselves to what was
formerly possible.
    The implant, the geometric form, that is going to be implanted inside
of your being is going to depend first of all on your request for alignment,
your request and your belief that these entities are working with you and that
they choose to be available to you if you choose to be available for them to
work with you. As you begin to unfold and to allow what are called miracles,
what are called magnificent events to manifest in your life, they will begin.
    Many of you will start with the implant of the circle because it
represents the god-form, the unity, the completeness. Some of you will select
to have the pyramid structure implanted within you. That will be your greatest
energy because you have aligned yourself for that structure on your planet.
    Some of you have had many many lifetimes with that pyramid. Not
particularly the pyramid at Giza, the pyramids all over the planet, discovered
and still undiscovered.
    You think in your world that your geography is known. It is not. There
are many things that are still undiscovered because they are slipping from one
reality to another. Deep within jungles there are many pyramids that are Iying
buried beneath mounds of earth. There are still many wonders to uncover.
    Back to this five sided structure. Those of you who are willing to
take the physical body and believe that there truly are no limitations, and to
take this body and move yourself off the planet with it while still living on
the planet, that is the kind of desire it will take to be implanted with this
merkabah. Some of you have attempted to travel with it. Some of you know how
it can be used in your being. But when you truly call it to yourself and you
are willing to get the feeling of what that truly means, to be unlimited
consciousness that will travel with the body without body, that is when that
implanting will come. It is not the highest implanting. There are no highest
or lowest implantings.
    It is implanting that comes when it will best suit your personal
development at the time. Once you have become implanted, there will be now, an
unending process of new forms that will come into your being.
    QUESTION: Do we pick our own implant?
    PLEIADIANS: No, you do not choose the form that will be implanted for
you. But you, yourself, choose the life that you have. You choose what is
important to you each day. What was important to you two years ago is not what
is important to you today.
    Two years ago, the way you carried your life would determine what
energy would be best suited to facilitate your development at that time. It is
a marriage of energies.
    Once you have become implanted in the beginning, once you align
yourself with this highest creator, with this consciousness, then a form is
placed inside of you. It is a geometric light form.
    That form resonates within you. When that form has been placed inside
of your being, it facilitates a coming of knowledge to yourself. Once that
energy from that form is assimilated, then you move, because your beliefs will
change, your alignment will change, you will evolve in your thinking, in your
being, in your consciousness, and you will be ready to have another light form
placed inside of you.
    Eventually you will all hold the alphabet of light inside of.your
beings. This alphabet of light will teach you. How many of you have dreamt of
geometric forms? That is an indication that the forms are working with you. If
you wish to know what you have been implanted with, begin to see which forms
continuously come first or that are larger than the others. Some of you will
have cylinder shapes, the parallel lines, the spirals, the spheres, the cubes,
the pyramids, the merkabah. There are many that do not even have names.
    The shapes that you will recognize will number a certain amount and
then afterwards they will take new forms and new shapes that your
consciousness cannot translate. Eventually, you have heard of what is called
the one hundred-and-forty-four? [They] represent those that are of the
spiritual hierarchy that are infused in the gridwork of your planet at this
time.
    There has been an entry point as if a great gathering is taking place.
You will notice as this year progresses, that there will be very very large
unfoldings of consciousness. What does this have to do with the language of
light?
    QUESTION: Are the geometric forms sealed into the grid pattern?
    PLEIADIANS: Yes, each one, each master, has its own seal, if you wish
to use that term, that would represent one portion of the language of light.
So you have one-hundred-and-forty-four thousand seals of energy that will be
infused within your being.
    You may think how could we live that long to have all that occur? You
will start by working with twelve forms, because twelve forms are basically
the forms that the body will be able to hold. Much later, once the
transformation has occurred, there will be a movement and there will be an
infusion of the entire one-hundred-and-forty four-thousand symbolic language
structures that will pass through your being. That will be an unfoldment that
cannot even be explained in your lifetime because it is something that you
cannot consciously make room for.
    QUESTION: How does this tie in with the gridwork that is also
expanding around the planet?
    PLEIADIANS: Each sacred site on the planet holds a mechanism that
measures time, and it measures consciousness of those within vicinity of this
structure. They are there to monitor the consciousness of mankind. When you go
to one of these sacred sites, knowing that you are aligning yourself with it,
you trigger something within yourself, and you trigger something within the
mechanism.
    Who planted these mechanisms? The great biogeneticists that are in
charge of this experiment on your earth sphere, Terra. They have been
nurturing you, allowing you to blossom, to grow to your fullest potential
before any changes are brought to being.
    You must, as a species, be prepared [mentally and physically] to make
this great change. If those that watched you were not completely careful, and
if they were operating with anything less than love, and if the dial was
turned up too quickly, your complete structure of body would not be able to
handle the leap in dimensional experience. You are not prepared to have things
sped up so quickly at this time.
    You are all feeling the acceleration of yourselves and you are getting
as much as you possibly can at this time. If you wish to hold more within your
being, then we will teach you with the language of light how to do it, how to
keep your gridwork expanded.
    Your physical vehicles are not in preparation to have you be able to
realize how many channels you are tuned into simultaneously. That is what the
preparation is. That is why we play games with you. That is why we have you on
energy exercises. That is why we ask you to become clear.
    The things we are teaching you are preparing you to see how
multi-dimensional you are in each moment so that when you are able to tune in
to the variety of stations that are your self, the variety of experiences, you
will do it with joy, safety and sanity.
    This is serious business. That is why your planet must be dealt with
love. That is why the great lords of light, the biogeneticists who have
designed you and who are now planning your next leap, are working with love,
gently, slowly, in the dream state, in a state such as this, so that you can
unfold in an easy fashion without fear of burning out who you are. Some of you
have burned out in other lifetimes.
    That burning out came from rushing too quickly, from not having the
consciousness expanded in such a fashion that would allow the great energy to
come in. Intentions must be of the most highest form in the greatest
upliftment. What that means is you allow love to come into your being and all
that you do is moved with love.
    QUESTION: What place do the Native American teachings have?
    PLEIADIANS: The Native Americans were seeded and taught by the star
entities. They were brought to earth by those from the stars. They were seeded
civilizations. They were taught how to live. They were taught how to
harmonize. The Native Americans represent a star-seeded civilization which
loved the earth, that implanted the earth with great energy.
    The earth is what makes your experience possible. You could not be
here if it were not for the earth. You do not yet love the earth enough and
acknowledge it enough.
    By awakening the Native American teachings, you come to the
realization that the earth is not something simply that you build upon and
walk upon and drive upon and take for granted. It is a living entity. It has
consciousness.
    It is that you need to tap into the consciousness communication of
earth. The Native Americans will awaken all that has been stored within you
and has been taught over and over again, because you all have sojourned within
those cultures. You will come to remember and come to cherish that which
allows you to be here.
    You will marry it with your ancient heritage from the stars and unite
the earth and the cosmos. You will unite it in your physical being and you
will carry the consciousness of God. Through that you will birth a new sphere
of being, new man and new earth.
    Native Americans are very tuned in to the variety of species of
consciousness. The combination of types of man animal man, insect man, bird
man, all of these forms that have a reality. If you do not see them walking
down the street, you do not think they exist. They exist in parallel realities
and worlds all around you.
    This is what you are going to find. This is why we said a long time
ago, don't think that you are losing your marbles some days. You will be
perceiving things. They are legitimate. They are real. It is what the Native
Americans will help you to understand.
    QUESTION: Can I learn to fly?
    PLEIADIANS: Your reality is determined by that which you have
subjected yourself to. Being that you have all grown up in a basically unknown
paradigm that does not support getting out of body and does not support
interdimensional travel, it is not the easiest thing to begin it when you are
getting the idea within your head.
    If you are desiring to learn how to fly and how to change forms, then
you get it very clear inside of yourself that that is what you are wanting. It
is a phase of your development that you intend more than any other to move
into and you will draw to yourself a teacher.
    When you think of what you want and intend that this is the next step
of your development, something will come in to teach you. You literally create
it and bring it into your world.
    The teaching of flying has to do with the alteration of consciousness
and what you think the physical body can do. When you fly, a portion of your
consciousness moves into another dimension of experience. You feel yourself
flying, you see yourself flying, you travel, and then you land in a new place,
and the body is dematerialized and brought forward with you.
    You are going to find that some of the Native American teachers that
are going to surface on your planet are going to teach you how to fly. It will
be an added bonus to your talents in the years ahead. This truly will be.
    QUESTION: How can we expect to have relationships, either starting or
continuing, if they are changing on a day-to-day basis, or our perceptions are
changing, our needs, our wants are constantly changing?
    PLEIADIANS: You are going to have to look very closely inside of
yourself to see what kind of relationships whether they are intimate
relationships, or general relationships you are going to feel comfortable
adding to your life, knowing who you are becoming. How important is it going
to be for each and every one of you to have your partners doing the same
thing? How important is support? How much support are you willing to give
another? In what way will your partners mirror who you are?
    You are also going to move into a new aspect of what it is to be in
relationship. You are going to see that relationship [does not mean]
ownership. It is allowing. It is respecting. It is being there for another to
facilitate their journey. You will re-evaluate what relationships will be many
times.
    There will be very intensely bonded relationships in the unnamed
decade. Those couplings that come together in the time of great expansion in
this nineteen-nineties will be very joyous. There will not be so many
shiftings around of staying for short periods of time and then going off to
someone else. There will be a great revelation and recognition of who another
person is. You will come together in that fashion.
    You will find that many that you were attracted to years ago you would
never be attracted to now, because you can see.  That seeing will become more
and more clear. You find that those experiments that took away from your
upliftment, that you were needing to sojourn within, you do not need to
sojourn within now. You will move with life and love and joy, and you will not
feel lonely that you are not in a relationship because your life will be full.
    When the proper relationship comes, you will recognize it. You will be
able to see who that person is. You do not have time now for nonsense. You are
finished with that. You are clear. You are clean, becoming what is called a
spiritual warrior. You are activating a very high energy within yourself, an
energy that will bring you more joy and satisfaction than you have ever dreamt
possible. You are aligning yourself with a purpose and a great creative
impetus that brings all this to being. Each of you know deep inside of
yourselves that you are not going to miss out on that information for
anything. So relax. You will get it all and more.
    We will be speaking with you again. Our advice, if you wish to take
it, is to build the road that is easy to walk upon and to have an intention of
uplifting journeys.

        The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. They call themselves our ancient family because many of
us came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth.
The Pleiadians are here as ambassadors to help Earth through her transition
from the third to the fourth dimension and to assist each of us in our
personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.
       The Pleiadians' first book The Bringers of the Dawn: The New Evolution
of Man will be available soon from Bear & Co. Publishers.
       Barbara  Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from
North Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. Barbara has channeled at various
Expos and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and
Japan.
       You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh, NC 27628

Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694

Copyrighted by Barbara  Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine with
permission.

For more information on the Pleiadian s Contact

Don Showen 408-974-9544 work  408-865-1768 Home
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Subject: Breaking Patterns-Pleiadians7
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Date: 28 May 92 08:40:19 GMT
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A Conversation with the Pleiadians

 Breaking Patterns The Flight To Freedom"

    We would like to speak about freedom, and what you think the flight to
freedom involves. There is going to be a spiritual revolution. The United
States is going to show what freedom truly means. It means to be a thought
manifestor, one who understands how to make reality move. That is what you are
lining yourselves up for.
    Those of you who think that you are free are stuck in limitations. You
are keeping the boundaries too close to your being. You are very far from
free. Freedom has no limitations. Freedom always has somewhere else to go.
When you argue for your freedom, and say you are free, you are the farthest
from it. Because freedom knows no bounds. There is always more to go. That is
the flight into freedom.
    QUESTION: How do you relate surrendering your will to be one with the
creative life force and working that along with manifesting, or creating?
    PLEIADIANS: When you talk about surrendering your will, you must
remember, and we remind all of you of this, First Cause, Prime Creator, God,
is within all things. You are operating with the will of First Cause. First
Cause does not judge. First Cause allows the journey to be explored. It is up
to the individual consciousness to move through experience in order to
determine what would be the greatest alignment of energy to facilitate growth.
You are insinuating that one could err. That one could be bad. That one could
go against the will of God.
    What we are saying is even those that, according to your judgments, go
against the will of God have God within them. You all think if something is
uplifting it must be right and if it is not uplifting it must be wrong.
    Each of you has sojourned into many experiences that have not been so
cozy and comfortable. Each of you in those situations learns something
fantastic, learns something that stays with you, that allows you to build a
whole new avenue of your consciousness upon it because you did something that
was not so good.
    Move out of judgment. Move into the freedom of self in the moment. Do
not define any limitations as to what you think you can or cannot do. For your
greatest growth, work with the love of yourself in your heart, honoring
yourself, feeling this magnificent energy of self.
    QUESTION: Is fear a boundary?
    PLEIADIANS: Fear is a boundary yes. Fear is one of the oldest
companions that you will have to walk with, because fear is a boundary that
you rationalize. You have a good reason for it, so you think. And so you
create a solid brick wall with fear. Each one of you, in the course of your
journeys, will have to dissolve your fears, whether they are fears of very
known things or fears of unknown things.
    We had someone come to us today, and she told us about a dream that
she had, and we explained to her what happened. In her dream she became
insistent upon going into an area where she did not understand the rules of
the game. She was not prepared to conquer the darkness that she saw.
    Her fear served her well when it came up because it pulled her astral
body back out of the environment. She was a bit too cocky because she was
being trained and thought that she could go all these places and be a thought
manifestor in every reality. She was shown the awesomeness of realities.
    She is humbled a bit now because she realizes that even though she is
a magnificent thought manifestor, in her dream world there are still areas of
going that even put the fear inside of her.
    She understood that she would have to face that fear, but it would
take strength for her to go into Lit] at sometime and dissolve it. When she
did not have that strength, that fear came at her and it ruled her world. It
ruled her world so much in the astral that her physical body was effected. She
could not align her astral with her physical and she struggled to get back in.
She was frightened, shaken to the core of her being.
    QUESTION: With this freedom, she found new limitations?
    PLEIADIANS: For the moment. We said she went into this with a cocky
attitude, thinking that she understood everything. This is an example of one
who thinks they know all. The next time she goes into that reality, we'll bet
you that she will be able to move through it and nothing will harm her.
    Fear, in that incident, served her very well. It let her know her soul
was in danger. That is what fear is for. To let you know that your life is at
stake. To pull back. That is the purpose of having fear within your body. So
that you know that you must regroup and rearrange your movement forward.
    Fear is a signal that says, "look out." But you all misuse fear. You
all have called things fearful simply because you are lazy. Simply because you
are lacking in courage.
    QUESTION: Is freedom an awareness that we move into or is it just
realizing that we are always getting closer to new possibilities?
    PLEIADIANS: On your planet, freedom will always be getting closer to
new possibilities. Your United States was formed with a spiritual intention.
It was formed by great masters who came into the body. It was formed by those
that were born in humble places and some that were born in high places and
incarnated in the form of man to carry a certain vibration into a land that
later on would be known to be the leader of this movement.
    That time has returned. Many of your spiritual leaders are once again
incarnated in different forms. And they are coming together. There is
awakening, within your government as well. Many wish to see this freedom
brought closer now to the hearts of man. And they will be rallying in this
country about what freedom is.
    There is truly no suppressing it. There is no way that this is going
to be stopped. It is out of the hands of man. We have said to you that you are
beloved creatures upon your planet.
    Some of you selected to sojourn in times of great difficulty and that
is your choice. So, if you selected to sojourn in times of joy, that we
applaud. But you all have incarnated many times in this plane. And every time
between your incarnations you have clamored and asked for assistance over and
over again. And you have insisted that your consciousness is ready for the
time.
    QUESTION: We were stretching our boundaries a little.
    PLEIADIANS: Yes you were. When you are not in body, you stretch
yourselves beautifully. Now that energy has been asked to come and design the
time, and this is the time. And so it is designed and called for by you.
    Those creator gods work with you in symbiotic relationships to alter,
from the very depths of your being, that which you are capable of. You think
that it is going to be so much work. It is not. You are being altered. All you
need to do is to respond in the very simple fashion that we speak of to the
alteration that is being transplanted inside of you. You merely need to push
the activation button.
    QUESTION: We find it difficult to manifest because we'd like to
believe in something other than what we perceive as true right then and there.
Like the Chinese struggle to manifest freedom, because they don't perceive in
that moment that they have it. Is that the reason that I find it difficult to
believe that I could manifest unlimited freedom to move in my consciousness,
because I experience it as being so locked down, so shut down, that it doesn't
seem to make sense?
    PLEIADIANS: The possibilities of all that you are desiring are inside
of you. Until you convince yourselves of that and you let go of the boundary
of what is possible, you will keep yourself from discovering that. Remember
the Chinese. Remember what possibilities they are after that some of them
think are completely beyond their grasp. And you take them for granted.
    Freedom to walk into a nice place to live. The freedom to buy clothes.
Freedom to buy something to eat. Freedom to walk down the street unharmed. The
freedom to be recognized, to acknowledge what you think, and not have anyone
lock you up for it.
    These are old freedoms that you fought for that others are awakening
to now. You must get into the idea of how, at one time, these things were
impossible for some humanities. And are still impossible for some humanities.
You must take your perspective and feel the compassion for them and send the
idea that it is not impossible.
    Look at what you think is impossible. Come into a moment of
recognition, a moment of knowing that is brilliant, a flash of understanding,
"Goodness, I am thinking that that is impossible. That is not very wise of me
is it? I am setting a boundary." It is merely a pattern of thought that you
argue for.
    QUESTION: To break that pattern do we have to believe, first of all,
that we can break that and intend that to happen, and believe that we deserve
to have whatever we are reaching for?
    PLEIADIANS: It is always deserving a possibility. Is it possible? Yes
it may be possible. Do I deserve it? Am I worthy of it? You move back and
forth with these things. It is the commitment. It is that stubborn insistence
directed to it's expanding boundaries. It is looking at that that you formerly
accepted as a definition and saying, "To heck, I'll go for more."
    It is consciously moving it out and not worrying about how or what is
going to happen. Get out of the logical mind. Move the boundary out, and then
don't get into a logical debate with yourself. Be in the creative mind.
    QUESTION: I notice myself blocking things that happen to me using my
logical mind. Could you suggest ways to get beyond that?
    PLEIADIANS: This is a good question. How does one stop dancing with
the logical mind? That is a vast challenge. But it is a belief system as well.
The logical mind is always wanting control. It is always thinking that it is
right. The creative mind, the child, is not arguing to be right. It wants
adventure, excitement, something new. It is a matter of identification. A
focus of conscious awareness of how you wish to approach your life.
    The logical mind will always hold you in limitation. It will give you
a sense of false security and false identity. The logical mind will normally
represent fears. It will keep you from doing that which you are afraid of
doing. The creative mind is the impulsive self. The self that makes no logical
sense. The self that is uninhibited.
    The self that runs naked through your dreams. That self is the self
that has a direct pipeline to your guides, to the portion of yourselves that
would bring you with ease, all of the joy and harmony you could possibly want.
    It is just that you are so aligned, and you have so many contracts and
treaties, that the logical mind, or the ego that is attached to it, is afraid
of being wrong. You are afraid of being foolish. You are afraid of being
ridiculed if you base your decisions upon the creative self. So, those of you
that doubt will be afraid to move into creativity and will find themselves
fighting difficulties. Those that move into creativity and trust will find
that the world opens before them, and there is no logical explanation for it.
    There are many people that have played with these ideas and have had
many successes. Much to their own surprise. We would have many testimonials if
we started to ask. It is simply changing a pattern. Breaking a habit. When you
decide to quit smoking cigarettes, what do you do? [You stop.]
    When you decide to lose weight, you start by following through on a
program that you are going to set out for yourself as to how you will achieve
it. When you want to do something, there is action that is involved. So, when
you want to move into the creative mind, you take action into the creative
mind which is stepping into the impulsive, the uncontrolled, the
uncontrollable, intuitive self.
    QUESTION: How do you do that?
    PLEIADIANS: How do you stop smoking cigarettes? We are not being
funny, we are being serious. How do you stop smoking cigarettes? You don't
pick another one up, do you?
    When you make the decision, that you are ready to stop with the
logical mind, there are many techniques that will activate themselves for you.
But, as we said earlier, you have contracts and treaties with the logical mind
that you find very difficult to break. Take your own power. Design yourselves.
Design your world. Go about it in any fashion that you choose.
    We are going to teach you something new. It is not so new, but it has
a new slant to it. When we were in Washington DC, the vehicle [Barbara] and
her friends were meeting many humanities. The vehicle said to the others,
"Let's not make this hard work. Let's just intend what we want and sit back
and let it come to us."
    So they began to intend up a storm. Each one was trying to out intend
the other with outrageousness. They were laughing and having a good time, and
they were sending out wonderful vibrations from their booth and the right
people started flocking over. So, they made up a name. "Let's play Intendo."
    Why not play a bit of Intendo every day with yourselves or with your
friends? It is fun and we suggest you do it because it will allow you to break
down the barriers.
    QUESTION: I have altered state experiences every so often. But, I
don't believe they are possible. I don't understand why I don't believe in the
possibility of experiences I've had.
    PLEIADIANS: You are stuck in the logical mind here. That is what you
are arguing for, the logical mind. You are saying, "I don't believe what I
experience is possible." You need to take a trip with Dorothy and Toto.
    It is the control of the logical mind. It will not relinquish a
breaking of the pattern. The logical mind insists that a certain world
vibrates within a certain pattern. And so you argue for the logical mind. We
must ask you again, to step out of logic. Begin to believe that which is
illogical and do not judge it.
    QUESTION: You once told me that my consciousness would change when I
got beyond the limitation of thinking that I am so-and-so, I live in this
year, and I live in this body, I am this self. What do you mean by that?
    PLEIADIANS: When we spoke about the defining of yourself, we were
simply saying that when you make a statement in definition of who you are, it
is a boundary that goes up around you, very simply. The more you define
yourself, the more boundaries that you have, as far as what you think you are
capable of experiencing.
    Many of you describe yourselves so well, you form other peoples
boundaries around yourselves. You say, "Hi, I am so-and-so. I have three
children, and I am a typist."
    What you are working towards, is relinquishing control of your
identity and allowing [it] to have a new housing, a new definition. It is a
very subtle energy, this redefining who the self is. You are understanding
that as you redefine the identity, you will not become less. You will not lose
a thing. You will gain perspective upon yourselves.
    That is what you have a hard time convincing yourselves of. The
logical mind has convinced you that you could lose yourself. That goes back to
the idea of death. You associate giving up the logical portion of yourself,
with the death of your ego and the annihilation of your being. Most of you are
afraid of what lies beyond death. That is where your blocks come in. It has
not been made known as common basis upon your planet, that there is no death.
    QUESTION: If there is no death, there is no failure either, right?
    PLEIADIANS: Failure is somewhat synonymous with death. Failure can be
taken further and further, because when one fails, one is afraid that one will
be annihilated. There is fear in failure because one is in disturbance about
the place that one may be going that one associates with death, or blanking
out, that nothing exists.
    When one has failure, one usually feels close to death. One has given
up. Nothing is there. But you see, that belief is the same belief as fear in
death.
    QUESTION: Isn't failure just a perception?
    PLEIADIANS: Oh, yes, it is. Failure is the need to keep one in one
particular place, to show oneself one is afraid to move.
    There is no failure. Failure is a label, just like death is a label.
It has a personal meaning for you.You take this belief, or this fear of
failure, and you bring it to yourself because you put power into it, and
because you label it a failure. If you could learn to trust that there is no
failure, it is only stepping stones leading to whatever lessons you need to
learn, you stop labeling things as failure. There are a number of individuals
who like to dwell upon failure.
    They are asking for sympathy. They are asking for a handout when they
talk about failure. "Oh, I have failed. Someone come to love me, someone come
hug me, someone come help me, I have failed." Simply say, "Someone come love
me. I was successful today."
    Make those things that seemed beyond your reach, within your reach. We
will always offer you a new horizon, a new experience. It will be up to you to
go for it.

        The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. They call themselves our ancient family because many of
us came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth.
The Pleiadians are here as ambassadors to help Earth through her transition
from the third to the fourth dimension and to assist each of us in our
personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.
       The Pleiadians' first book The Bringers of the Dawn: The New Evolution
of Man will be available soon from Bear & Co. Publishers.
       Barbara  Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from
North Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. Barbara has channeled at various
Expos and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and
Japan.
       You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh, NC 27628

Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694

Copyrighted by Barbara  Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine with
permission.

For more information on the Pleiadian s Contact Don Showen 408-974-9544 work
408-865-1768 Home
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:44:34 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 303
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10308 alt.alien.visitors:6087 sci.skeptic:24629

A Conversation with the Pleiadians

Excerpt from the tape:

THE MIND GAME & PATTERNS

    You have heard us say that all is true according to the perception, and
[that] reality is far beyond what you can conceive of. There is a vastness that
is ever growing and expanding. There have been on your planet quite a few
humanities who have figured out the rules and have learned a little bit better
than other humanities how to create, how to bring about what they are wanting
and how to become manipulators, rulers, and designers of the game themselves.
    Your planet started off with a certain plan in mind. That plan was to
design a new world where there would be great exchanges of information. The
great computer-like mind connected a crystal network of information that would
beam out in this galaxy as a storehouse perhaps. It was an exchange center. A
world was designed that was beautiful because this information was going to be
held in the cells of each and every creature and molecule of consciousness that
existed here. Consciousness was going to be endowed within all things.
    In the vast expansion of creation, many different forms of sentient
beings exist. They are all playing what you would call the mind game. The Prime
Creator, First Cause, was, or so it seems, the originator of the mind game.
    The Prime Creator thought itself into a reflected state and moved so
that it could see itself so that it could prove to itself it existed. It
created outside of itself. And so the game has gone. Even the Prime Creator
continuously surprises itself with the new rules and the new possibilities of
this substance that has been endowed with consciousness.
    The forms of this substance continuously mutate and change and even the
smallest portion of being has new potentials. Within this mind game that all of
existence plays, the rules constantly change. That is part of the game.
    What is occurring on the planet at this time is that you are being
instructed and given information because the rules have changed. It is time for
large numbers of humanity to call on their own innate knowing, to bring about
their own beautification of development, to step wisely and to learn to play
with all of the abilities.
    You have heard us [say] to become aware of what you present to
yourselves. Every portion of the material that is outside of you determines how
you are going to feel and how you are going to set the parameters of your
experience and what you are going to allow yourselves to put within your lives.
What you see is determined by what you believe is possible. You are in a double
bind so to speak, for you wish to change what you believe to be possible about
yourselves and yet you do not quite know how to change what you are perceiving.
    Codings are inside of each and every one of you. [They] are being
reactivated by some of those ancient creators who brought your planet into
being when they were playing with their own godhood. There have been many
struggles over the territory of this, your Earth Sphere, Terra. Many have come
here and reigned and have utilized the rules of the game and developed
societies according to how they wished humanities to perceive.
    You have been very often the product of a few individuals designing the
mass humanity experience. Once again you are involved in this. This time, you
are being told that you can be liberated through your own thinking and through
your own perceptive abilities. We wish to push you further into this so that
you can truly realize what your boundaries are and realize that every portion
is part of the game.
    QUESTION: Do these creators compete against each other and have their
creations make war on each other?
    PLEIADIANS: There have been competitions. There have been vast amounts
of information kept from the public for eons. There have been humanities who
have known the capabilities of mankind. You find yourself attempting to expand
your capabilities, yet you fight and deny that you even have them.
    The time has come for you to tap into this. Those greater humanities
who you have called gods, those more expanded beings, have indeed made their
own rules for the mind game. Within those rules they designed societies where
mankind was not encouraged to a state of independence. Think about the history
of your world for the last 2,000 of your years and look at the different
societies. What did these societies do? How many encouraged freedom? How many
encouraged independence? How many societies work with the idea of suppression?
    You have heard us say that you live in the United States, the land of
the free, or so you think. We are not here to start a revolution, we are here
to expand what you believe to be possible and to assist you in your own growth
and to turn you ultimately to yourselves and your own answers. There is nothing
more to believe in than yourself.
    When you believe in a God that is so outside of yourself you are not
acknowledging the God that is within you, that has been your birthright. This
is a major state of awareness for each and every one of you to move into the
holiness of your own being.
    Each and every one of you are all that you need to believe in. When you
believe in yourself, expand what you think you are, you begin to learn the
rules of the great mind game and then you are up there with the big guys.
    QUESTION: I have been in a massive state of confusion, going back and
forth from one belief system to another.
    PLEIADIANS: When you are about to make a change, in general, you will
go through a bit of disorientation so that you can come to a greater
understanding of yourself. Also the disorientation has to do with the releasing
of old behavior, with the relinquishing of control, because wherever you are,
in whatever state of development, there is a certain amount of control.
    The control forms the boundaries of what you think is safe behavior,
and safe avenues to traverse. So when you are about to make a change you have
to allow that to come down and reevaluate what you think is okay for you as
humanities to do. And you become impatient and you cannot understand why it has
taken you a long period of time to move from one state to another. It is quite
simple. You are not making the decision.
    The ideas that you are sending out to yourself are not clear. It may
seem to you that it is clear. You do not understand how intricate your thoughts
are and you think you make one statement and this is going to create and you
can forget about it and make all the other statements that are going to
uncreate it. Only you do not hear those. Your thoughts are like fog and they
seep out from you into all forms. And they always seek to expand, to be out
there in territory. So, when you are not certain about what you are wanting,
you are not giving out a one-lined direction.
    The energies at this time are becoming really very powerful, very
highly charged. You are learning that there is a certain intensity of
commitment that is going to be needed to lift yourself into higher states of
consciousness. All of your thoughts count. If all of your thoughts are not
lined up to your greatest intention, you are not going to get there, not in
completeness. You all need to learn how to trust yourselves, how to have a
greater love for yourselves and, of course, much more joy.
    Learn to utilize the greater vehicles that you have to keep you within
a balance so that you can move at these great speeds. When you do not have
balance you are not going to move forward with acceleration. You will crash.
    Many of you have bumped the heads and bumped the psyches because you
have gone after something that you thought that you wanted and have not
understood the rules of the game. Or you have sabotaged your own rule making by
thinking that you were not powerful enough, or looking to others as being such
great humanities, or thinking that you were not worthy of what you were
after.The kicks you get out of talking about it [are more exciting] than it
would be to manifest it.
    It is most interesting. What is happening on your planet at this time
really makes it an "in" place to be. If there were a People magazine for the
cosmos, the Earth Sphere Terra would be on the cover. And you all are stars.
So, live it up. Be alive because that is what it is all about. Wherever you go
and whatever state of consciousness you are in, there is going to be stuff to
learn. As you learn how to utilize the rules here, then you would be changing
the game for all of the other players. As you all become awake, you will be
bucking the system. And you will be showing that the rules indeed have changed
and that even the most minute forms of consciousness have figured out that they
are like the gods.
    QUESTION: What kind of freedom do we need to seek?
    PLEIADIANS: When you are seeking freedom it is a freedom from
expectations. Many humanities, just as you, have figured that out because word
has been passed down on your planet and secret societies have known for eons
many of the rules, so to speak. Many who learned how to play the games kept
freedom as a precious food from reach of the majority of humanity.
    They called it by mysterious names and they said that humanity would
not know what to do with this if they have this. And so they kept it for
themselves. So, when we say to you to seek freedom, it is freedom from anything
that is going to define and suppress any of your ability that would limit you.
    Stay within that freedom, move outward in all that you would affect
within your life experience and your reality to extend that freedom outward to
others as well. There are no limitations.
    QUESTION: How far is it possible to jump from the level we are now?
    PLEIADIANS: A tremendous amount can be figured out from here. In a very
short period of time, the large majority of you will have made a gigantic leap.
Within one, perhaps two of your years, there [are] going to be abilities to
perceive in vastly different fashions.
    Even now you are learning how to expand as you have seeded yourself
with light and as you begin to listen to the internal self. Many of you are too
intellectual with this. You are all "up here" and you are all afraid to be
"down here" because this is where you are going to feel. You are going to
connect your feeling and you are going to develop a compassion. And then you
would move into these realms.
    They are not thinking realms. They are realms of the highest connection
of spirituality. And they would keep you tethered to great beings of light who
would communicate with you as they are building light bridges to you at this
time. You have no idea of what is possible. Your mind cannot conceive of what
is.possible for your lifetimes.
    We have recently spoken that something that is going to be and is
available for all of you is what we call the immortality of your being the
ability to extend life and to stop your nonsense of labeling a programmed
degeneration of the body. That is part of the game.
    That is a flexible rule. Why do you determine that you are getting
older? Why do you determine that the body loses with age? Because a certain
sector of society passed on a rule of the game. Someone wanted to have power
and make money and make up a portion of the game that was called health.
    Everything is the game and you buy into every portion of the game. We
[get] you very stirred up so that you won't be buying anyone's game but your
own. You can learn to work with one another for support to make up the rules of
your own game and then you will set things flying. You are unlimited beings.
That is the great joy that you are experiencing. This is why you have all come
here. To participate in that. To remember it.
    Many humanities on your planet are going through times of great
difficulty right now because energies are changing and there are certain
beliefs that are smacking them in the face. You have heard us say that
electromagnetic energy has completely changed on your planet and all has been
sped up within the cosmos because of the movement of your universe into the new
area of space.
    You are being charged by new particles of existence. This is bringing
about the shift in consciousness. It is this that makes all things different,
that makes all things possible now. This is what is ringing out within your
souls to satisfy and to describe and many who you study and who you read about
are all telling you the same thing. They may use different words.
    All you need to do is have the lights begin to go off in your head. It
does not matter whose words say them to you for you have all the information
stored within you. What you are merely doing is exposing yourself to certain
triggers that you have set up in the outside world to bring about the
activation of certain patterns within you. You do not have to get into a big
sweat about the whole thing, you know. You are working towards it. You are only
a few steps away from certain amounts of great changes. You will be awed by
those and you will be excited and then you will move into boredom once again
and you will be wishing for new abilities. You are moving quickly now.
    Think about what you have done in a few of your years. Think about when
you all were at the beginning of [the 1 980's] what you knew, how you felt
about yourselves, what was possible. And think about where you were one year
ago and what you know now. You are definitely moving.
    QUESTION: What's the difference between the old rules and new rules?
    PLEIADIANS: There existed in what you would call biblical times,
certain entities that came to your planet that were playing. They knew the
rules were that if you created and if you sent out certain ideas you could get
masses of consciousness to follow this action. So these entities came to your
planet and they affected cultures. They played with the alteration of your DNA
and formed new men out of the basic Earth stock that existed here at different
times. These entities sojourned and are written about in your Bible. They
affected mankind through the ways that you are presently feeling the results
of. The old rules were that this was a territory for what you would call
certain skylords.
    These skylords made the rules. The rules were that humanities would
worship those that were in the sky and that they would develop all sorts of
expression of this worship. They would be given an endowment of themselves but
they would not be given the complete information because then, who would they
play with? There were other skylords who wanted these humanities to have a
decent game to be playing in. And so there has been a challenge on your Earth
Sphere Terra as to the type of information that has come in to allow these
humanities to perceive what they can be. The old rules were that the large
majority of humanities were not given the understanding of who they were. They
were kept in ignorance. They were kept in darkness. They were kept in
submission. You were kept from ultimately understanding who you were.
    The new rules are that all is allowed. You are being blown wide open so
to speak. The gates have been opened and it is fine for you to know your
ultimate experience with creation.
    Do you know who changed those rules? You did. After sojourning here for
thousands of times, you figured it out. This time was designed for you so you
could bring about what it is that you have been after from the beginning.
    One of the main rules, the one that you all are attempting to figure
out and put into being is the idea of thought manifestation that you are a
result of your thoughts. That is the one that is most important for you to
learn at this moment. Not to wait for great beings to come from the sky to save
you. You argue for your limitations. You hold onto them. You clutch them dearly
like little dollies that you played with when you were young.
    QUESTION: What about the dilemma of getting to know yourself and not
liking what you see?
    PLEIADIANS: It is an excellent point the dilemma of getting to know
oneself, which comes with developing self-awareness and self-esteem, and not
liking what one sees. Change it. What you are seeing is only your judgment
anyway. You all love to call yourselves right or wrong. "I am beautiful today,"
and the next day, "I am what the cat dragged in." You do this to yourselves
back and for, all the time. Why judge it?
    You are learning. You are on your journey and you are feeling that
certain expressions of behavior and experience give you exhilarations and
others make you want to turn your head. When you are finding this within
yourself you are allowing yourself to develop along a pathway. If you are
finding that there is a portion of yourself that you do not like, allow
yourself to love that portion and to release it. If you don't like a part of
yourself then let it go.
    Utilize the rules and make a new you. Change your behavior. Believe
that you can change a portion of yourself. But don't release it out of hatred
or anger. Allow yourself to realize that whatever it is that you are perceiving
that you did not particularly approve of, you birthed it into being. Let it go.
Do not tether it to yourself any longer.
    It is not that you are going to always love every portion of yourself
for you are teaching yourselves and you are bound to run across something that
is going to get your attention. It is a message to gather more information and
ultimately give you more compassion for others. So, be more easy on yourselves.
    Until you love yourself, you are not going to experience love from
anywhere else. This light energy that is being sent to you and this light
energy that permeates existence, is made up of love. It is a substance of being
that permeates all things. If your scientists were to break down the particles
of the most minute aspect of existence to find out what makes everything go and
everything tick, it is love. It's what connects you. It is what keeps you
alive.
    Start with yourselves. Realize that in this game you picked yourselves.
You picked yourselves to be the player that you would move around in this
aspect of existence.
    When you don't except responsibility for the player that you picked,
you deny your participation in the game. And so you are moved across the board
of life without any control, always looking to connect with love and never
realizing that in order to connect with love you must turn on your own light,
which is turned on with self-love. When you turn on your own light by loving
yourself because you have selected yourselves, and by not judging yourself,
then the game completely changes. Then you don't go looking for love. You are
it.
    When you are love, and when you move with love, all you bring back to
yourself is love because you are like a beacon and you draw it all to yourself.
When you do not love yourself and you go out looking for love, you cannot even
see it because you do not have the electromagnetic capacity to even recognize
it, to even draw it to yourself.
    Remember that you, yourselves, are your primary tools for enjoyment and
experience. It is you, yourselves, who are your greatest teachers. So live, for
you have it all within you. Everything . else, when you discover this, will
unfold before you in the most glorious magic of being.

        The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. They call themselves our ancient family because many of us
came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth. The
Pleiadians are here as ambassadors to help Earth through her transition from
the third to the fourth dimension and to assist each of us in our personal
endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.
       The Pleiadians' first book The Bringers of the Dawn: The New Evolution
of Man will be available soon from Bear & Co. Publishers.
       Barbara  Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from North
Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. Barbara has channeled at various Expos
and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and Japan.

       You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh, NC 27628

Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694

Copyrighted by Barbara  Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine with
permission.

For more information on the Pleiadian s Contact

Don Showen 408-974-9544 work  408-865-1768 Home
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Codings-Pleiadians 10
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:48:20 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 331
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10309 alt.alien.visitors:6088 sci.skeptic:24630


A Conversation with the Pleiadians Excerpted from the tape: CODINGS
    Buried deep inside of you are all of your answers. The questions that
come to the forefront of your minds are coming so that you can start within
your own beings and bring up your own answers. In order to achieve this you
must first believe that the information is stored there.
    Humanity is learning a great lesson at this time. The lesson, is of
course, to realize your godhood; to realize your connectedness with All That
Is, with all that exists; to realize that there are multitudinous cultures and
societies that exist throughout the vastness of what you call space, and that
these societies and these cultures have been on and off your planet from the
very beginning.
    It is not just that we, the Pleiadians, have come to assist. We are
one grouping from one star system. There are many who have journeyed here for
many reasons. Some have come for resources, some for fuel. Some have come to
teach. Some have come to suppress. Some have come to enslave. Some have come
to use the Earth sphere, Terra, as a laboratory.
    What we are speaking of is no great secret. But it is kept from your
societies. It has served your world well to a certain extent to forget that
you have star and spatial connections. As this information was passed down
from one mouth to another and the stories were altered here and there to suit
the teller and to suit the situation, certain aspects of the ancient history
of your planet turned into myth.
    When you are children you learn about these myths and you call them
fairy tales, or legends. But, indeed, they are about something. They are about
your history, and they are at this time very distorted.
    There was a purpose behind all of this. There are no accidents. All is
agreed upon and planned through the magnificent telepathic connections that
exist between all of mankind and all of the cosmos. You moved into this state
of unawareness, so that you could explore new territories of being on your
earth.
    Many of you who are familiar with our words and the words of many wise
ones that are assisting you in your growth at this time, think badly of those
who are on your planet who are not in accord with this information. It is
completely unnecessary. The development and the unfolding of humanities is
proceeding quite nicely.
    There are many, many groupings at this time who are following the
great pull of curiosity that moves them to their beings. They are stepping
forward and daring to be a bit different, and daring to believe in new
concepts and ideas.
    It is our role to offer you a bit of confidence on your journey, to
assist you to align yourselves with your own memories so that you can truly
blossom forth and provide yourself with your own understanding.
    Your bodies are completely coded with the information that is
necessary. It is not only that your bodies are coded and that you respond to
certain calls that go out. It is also that as you are being awakened, opened,
and as you consciously seek this, you send out a signal and you draw to
yourselves a great host of beings.
    Your histories move in and out of very special times. Many of you
became involved here eons ago through star energy, through Pleiadian contact,
through working with the higher realms. Many of you know the difficulties
quite completely that Terra has gone through how many times the lands have
shifted; how many times help came from the skies.
    Information was distorted as those who came from the skies to move you
along in your development were turned into gods. Even children now idolize
those who can do what they cannot do. Your society demonstrates to you, quite
clearly, this concept of godhood. We are here to remind you, it is
unnecessary.
    Your third dimensional world is one of great challenge. It is one that
allows magnificent limitations to set themselves up. Through these
limitations, structures are formed. And you learn. And you attempt to create.
    You all are a great portion of the First Creator, First Cause, and
First Cause desires experience. So when you judge your fellow man for not
being what you think they should be or, worst of all, when you judge yourself
for not being what you think you should be, you place barriers around your
experience. What we are telling you is that you are glorious beings.
    Not all on the planet are ready for this shift. As we see it, there
will be two probable worlds that will split off those who cannot follow the
development into the fourth and fifth dimensional experience, and that of
uniting, comprehending all is energy. Those that cannot follow this will form
their  own Earth sphere, Terra. What you forget, and we continue to remind you
of, is the third dimensional experience is not one of solidity even though it
seems to you that your world is solid and that you are solid beings. You are
energy within space.
    This energy can be manipulated and changed around through the process
of thinking. Your experience in the world that you will be forming is
completely contingent on your thoughts. When you learn to honor yourselves and
to trust that your thoughts form your experience and that they do indeed
count, that each and every one of you makes a difference when you begin to
completely feel this and live this, then you will be stepping forward into
your work. You will have great demonstrations of this, and you will begin to
create, to form, and to magnify your feelings into experience.
    We started off by telling you that you are coded. All mankind is coded
deep within the essence of their being, deep within the cells of their being.
They are coded to certain responses and certain behaviors, and these codes are
implanted by you. None other comes into your life and takes control over you.
When you are out of body in your times of overview and study, you plan the
time that you would sojourn within and the personality that you would occupy,
and the challenges that would rise forth before you.
    How else would you know to respond? Think about it. Think about the
intimacy of your own being. And think about yourselves and who you are and how
glorious you are. You have placed within portions of your body, certain bits
of information, that would be activated at the appropriate times, and you
would meet the most necessary people, and you would be in the proper places.
This is so for all humanities.
    We are here to assist you to give you some basic understanding of how
you yourselves are going to transform your experience on your planet. It is
not that you are going to be saved by those from the skies. You are being
assisted, you are being guided.
    You are asking for help, we are giving, as many others are. But, as a
mother would say to a child, if I do your homework for you, you will never get
to college. If you examine who you are and what your desires in life are, you
will find that you know deep within you who you are. When you say that you do
not, you are taking a position of powerlessness. You are not acknowledging the
glory of your humanity.
    Allow yourself to perceive new dimensions of experience and new
realities, and to notice what you are doing for yourselves. Your beliefs can
stop you completely in your tracks from moving forward. They are your greatest
allies, your beliefs, for they allow you to move through your day-to-day
experience in what ever way you choose.
    You are awakening yourselves. You are encoded. Most importantly, you
are a direct result of your thought manifestations. Your experience is a
direct result of your thought manifestations.
    QUESTION: In recent times it appears that things on the planet are
accelerating in a very fast way to it's own annihilation. Unless there are
changes, it won't last. So, should we be unattached to the earth or should we
try to change it?
    PLEIADIANS: There is no trying to change. You cannot try to change
anything. When you try, you don't accomplish a thing. Trying is inactivity.
Doing is what will bring about change.
    It is very important to care about your world. Indeed it does seem as
if the world is going down the tubes so to speak. But this has occurred in
other ways in other times in similar activities.
    What you do not understand is that the world is not solid. All
[humanities, out of their love for Mother Earth, feel a need to change, to
save the Earth. When you understand that it is not a solid mass of being that
you are working with, you are already one step on the board of the game. When
you understand completely that thought manifestation is what creates the
world, then you understand how important your thought manifestation is.
    Your doing, your activity is secondary. You can do all you want, but
if you don't believe that your doing is any good, and that you are one
powerless individual, then you will not help the shift of the world.
    As we see it, the duality and the polarity that is coming on your
planet will involve a breaking off of two completely different, separate
Terras. You think that there are going to be two Earths and the astronomers
from other places would have twin Earths.
    You must understand that all is energy and that there are many
probable worlds, and that each of you move into a probable world of your
experience whenever you change your mind. That occurs continuously.
    But, we are talking about a major event, a major splitting off now, so
that those on the planet, who wish to come full cycle to be complete, will
create now, a world that is healed, that is joyous and that is full of beauty.
    Often, before one understands that one is on a path of destruction,
that one is not moving in the greatest direction of growth, one must become
ill in order to receive and to re-evaluate and to heal. The Earth sphere,
Terra, could be cleaned up quite quickly by entities from the stars. [But,]
the Earth sphere, Terra is your responsibility.
    You can, and you will at some point, receive great assistance. But
your challenge is to understand that the work that is to be done is not
primarily done with hammers and nails. The work would be primarily done with
thought. And when you learn to come together in groupings and to recognize one
another, and to recognize that indeed you achieve tremendous steps forward
when you focus on manipulating the energy to allow it to grow and manifest and
bring in great light, then indeed, you are creating this.
    You are greatly assisted as far as keeping destructive mechanisms from
detonating. You have no idea. This universe has free will, and so the
challenges often times are much greater. We have codes of honor that we
ourselves must obey. There is only so much interference that can come about,
so much that can be transmuted.
    But when it comes to the great destructive detonations, many have been
stopped so that energies can reassess what their intentions are. Often it
takes the desire of one mind calling for assistance. One small child in the
desert expecting to wake up tomorrow morning, and calling to some unknown god
in the sky as he lays down to sleep, looking at the stars, knowing that he
plans on waking up on the morrow. And so often, one small cry like that
changes the balance of energy and great beings of light come and they assist
because they know that it can be staved off.
    Honor Mother Earth. Whatever portion of Mother Earth that you occupy,
that you own, that you walk over, send loving thoughts. Align yourself with
the Earth, and the Earth energy and do what you feel is necessary for your own
personal growth. Again, the greatest work will be done with your thoughts. Do
not allow yourselves to buy into the idea that your Earth is doomed. For we
guarantee you that it is not.
    QUESTION: Would you clarify the idea of two Terras?
    PLEIADIANS: The concept of probability is that there is no one reality
and that you yourselves branch off continuously through your thoughts. It is
not that you ever change a world, you change which world you occupy. Again
this goes back to the idea that your world is not solid. It is constructed of
energy, and that energy takes form through the thoughts of those that
participate within that world.
    There are, and there always have been, probable Earths and probable
experiences. There are probable yous who are leading quite different lives
than the yous sitting within this room. You are frequency, energy. You are
literally beating to a chord of energy that sings you into existence. You are
so familiar with it, that you stay focused with it continuously on one aspect
of your experience. But, experience goes on from many perspectives. and what
you are learning is how to change the frequency and change the beat so that
you can notice what you usually do not notice.
    What is occurring is this great polarization of energies, participants
and observers. Many who have come to observe have come to disrupt as well.
They have come to learn their stuff in this time so to speak. [There are also]
the participants who are completely intent on creating this world, which will
be quite glorious.
    As we see it, as the probable worlds begin to form, there will be
great shiftings of humanities on your planet. It will seem that great chaos
and turmoil are forming. It will seem that nations rise against each other to
war. It will seem that earthquakes are happening more frequently. It will seem
that the animals and the fish are departing. What is occurring is that those
animals are now moving over to that world as it is being formed. They are not
departing in existence, they merely slip into the world to await your pleasure
and to await your joining them.
    It is difficult for us to explain this to a certain extent because it
is beyond the experience of the third dimensional entity. You are moving to
the fourth dimension. When this move is made, literally you will form a new
Earth. And literally you will be there and it will seem to you as if you have
all awoken from a dream.You will awake in a world that is pristine and
beautiful.
    Your .skies are full of observers watching and waiting to see how you
will do this and give you assistance in doing this, because it seems as if it
is completely beyond the possibility of your world for many. Not for you who
have studied this energy as alchemists, as ancient Atlantians, in temple life.
The training that you have had in other times has all been the encoding that
has been placed within your being to prepare you for this juncture.
    QUESTION: So, if this new world is in the fourth dimension, would you
clarify what the difference is between the dimensions?
    PLEIADIANS: The newly formed world will have all dimensions in it.
Dimensions exist over each other, on top of each other, within each other,
around each other. Because of your training and because of the way you have
been set up to believe and think about yourselves, it does not seem possible
to accept these ideas.
    That is why we scramble up your minds, so to speak, so that you can
make room when you are on your own, and have lights go off in your heads to
comprehend. It is not that we are explaining to you so much, it is that we are
jumbling you up.
    You, yourselves, will right your energy. Any of you that are feeling
jumbled at certain times and confused and frustrated, it is because you are
doing great work, it is because you are realigning the thought process and the
understanding process of who you are.
    The third dimensional experience is one that seems to be solid. It
seems to be in straight line, event following after event, and it seems that
the whole world is defined. It [seems] solid.
    The fourth dimensional experience is one of perception. It is one
where you know certain things, where the body is seemingly less solid. Where
one can see light beings, where one can hear sounds, where one uses other
facilities to learn and to gather information.
    The fifth dimensional experience allows one the opportunity to become
less solid completely. And it is that ability that you are working towards.
That is where humanities are eventually moving to.
    Some will come on this new world because of great love. They will come
purely as third dimensional beings because they are pure of heart, and pure of
love. It is not that they have studied in temples and schools of learning, it
is because they have learned to love. And they have learned to speak with the
Earth, and they desire peace and beauty. Many of that type of man will come to
this new Earth.
    Your roles will be to teach these men and women how to move in the
fourth dimension and fifth dimension. Because they will not be blocked, they
will be completely open because of their love, they will grow and they will
make an evolutionary leap within their consciousness that is astounding.
    Love is the key. Love is what makes up the universe. We have said to
you that your technology will only develop to a certain extent because
mankind, the scientists, do not understand that love is necessary. Energy can
take all forms of creativity, but when one is dealing with greed or hatred, or
any of the other multitudinous emotions that are not working towards light,
then you only are allowed to go so far. There is only so much information that
is available to that sort of vibration. Love is the basic building block. When
one has love, all possibilities exist.
    QUESTION: Assuming we finish up our duty on Earth in this lifetime,
where do we go?
    PLEIADIANS: There are many on the planet at this time who are here to
complete within this activity of experience. They have sojourned here over and
over again to learn, to plan, to educate themselves, to encode their beings in
preparation for this time.
    When this new world is formed, your extension of lifetime will
completely change, your perceptions of time will completely change, and it
will be an altered state of being. You will be united with the star energies
and extraterrestrials that have been assisting your planet and cultures for
eons.
    [They] will come to offer all sorts of varieties of experience. Some
will choose to work on other planets as conscious beings. Some will choose to
stay here on Terra to rebuild and to structure a new society. Many will stay
to work with the children and to have the children teach them.
    When you are translating from whatever experience you have, those who
are here to complete [will understand] that the job is done. A new world is
formed, and that those that wish to, will have a safe platform and a beautiful
planet, a jewel of a planet, to move forward with.
    That planet will draw only certain energy to itself because the energy
would have been purified and righted and brought into great alignment. Many of
you have been here for so long, that you long for other experiences.
    It is not that you are stuck here. It is that to complete a portion of
your journey, you stayed. And you all have come to be very fond of one another
and so there will be greater discussions, and greater options of where you
would be going.
    Some of you would not choose to come into third dimensional bodies for
a long long time for there is much to be done without coming into bodily
incarnations and being born. Within the spirit world, there is much traveling
to do and many of you will take vacations as you would call them, and travel
about to re-activate what you have forgotten.
    You will check out certain places of activity. You will go to
different planets and see different forms of being. Time does not exist, so it
would be possible, in your terms, to spend one million of your years searching
to see where you wished to go next. And those one million years go by like a
month's vacation.
    You may go somewhere and become involved in sound or light or
manipulating matter into shapes. Or you may be content become part of
crystalline forms that merely exist, that merely act as senders of
information. You may become one with these crystalline structures that have
become gigantic [and] make up entire planets on other dimensions.
    You would go there to ease your soul's journey and to become one with
all the consciousness that would be, like the central computer in certain
areas of existence. These crystalline structures would take in and pass out
information. That would be quite satisfying because you would have perceived
the experience without actually having to go through the bodily incarnation.
    Some of you, after your success, may be quite bold and daring and
choose to assist another planet in its growth. [You would] come in and be born
as them, or buz them within these starships and intrigue them.
    It is quite complicated. It is all fun. It is all loving. And it is a
vast magnificent plan that changes all the time and is always available to
you. You must understand that you, yourselves, are very important in all of
this. You have wide vistas of experiences open to you.

    The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. The Pleiadian culture is ancient and was "seeded" from
another universe of love long before Earth was created. They have formed a
tremendous society which operates with love, with ideas and ideals that we are
yet unfamiliar with.
    The Pleiadians call themselves our ancient family because many of us
came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth.
They are here as ambassadors from another universe to help Earth through her
transition from the third dimension to the fourth dimension and to assist each
of us in our personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.
    Barbara J. Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from
North Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. The strength and purity of the
message she is bringing very quickly captured the hearts of many seekers
looking to be all that they can be. Barbara has channeled at various Expos and
for groups across the United States, in Peru and in Germany. She is planning
trips to Egypt, Japan, Australia and Europe.
    You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh,  N.C.27628
Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694
Copyrighted by Barbara  Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine with
permission.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Fullness, Ripeness...of Your Days-Pleiadians 12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:52:19 GMT
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10310 alt.alien.visitors:6089 sci.skeptic:24631

A Conversation with the Pleiadians

Excerpted from the tape:

The Fullness, Ripeness and Sweetness of Your Days

    You are coming to maturity. You are coming to be full in your blossom,
full in your vibrancy, full in your seed. The fullness and the ripeness, the
sweetness of your own being  the beings that you would be a bit nostalgic for,
that would almost be something like an ache inside of your being when you look
back at these times.
    Many of you have done very well and brought yourselves to a very firm
stance within yourselves. You saw what needed to he changed and you rose to the
occasion and alIowed yourself to just be nourished by the energies that would
bring you to become ripe upon the vine. Some of you have heard us speak about
the time that is coming, the new energy accelerations. For some of you it must
seem as if you live from one energy acceleration to the next.
    Tremendous current.s of energy come with each new acceleration. Now you
are ripe. Now you are ready. Now you have moved past that which has been
difficult. Now you are ready like spiritual warriors to face what is coming, to
go full on into what lies ahead in the light, the brilliancy.
    Your population is beginning to double at an accelerated [pace]. You
are moving into the electrifying leap of consciousness because there will be
more and more and more people upon the planet. [In the '70's] there were
approximately 2 billion humanities upon the planet. Now you have over 5 billion
people, in less than fifteen of your years. What is going to happen in the next
fifteen of your years? Why are so many humans coming upon the planet?
    You are at a very interesting point in your development. Many of you do
not see so clearly where it is that you are. We would like to say that you are
poised on the brink of the cliff. You have traveled very far and now the next
step for you is the journey into the boundless energy. Life is going to get
much more thrilling, interesting and exciting.
    We would discuss with you the sweetness, the richness, the ripeness of
life this evening of your days and how the point that you have reached will
take you further into areas where you are all going to need to become experts
[and] have tremendous confidence in your abilities.
    QUESTION: I want to ask about the population increase. When people
incarnate onto the planet they know the changes that are going to happen, so
why would they be incarnating?
    PLEIADIANS: You must understand how the earth has been for so long. It
is the same place, the same cyclical type of situation where everyone comes
onto the planet in order to work through what is needed always working,
working, working. Think about 10,000 years ago. How many humanities were on the
planet? Then think about 5,000 years ago and see how the numbers have
increased. When the numbers were smaller, of course, things would go much
slower. Now that the numbers have accelerated so vastly, things are sped up.
    Now, this is where humanities get stuck. You all think it is bad to
die. True? You want everyone to live happily ever after, forever. Immortality
of being. So you all think it is not good if mass amounts of humanities are
terminated. That is your premise, many of you, that starts off all this
questioning.
    You must understand that before one comes into physical body one knows
that one is not going to become annihilated. So one comes in with confidence
that they are a continuous being. It is only when one is entrenched in the
body, in the physical reality, that one is not so certain that one goes on.
    Many of the beings that are coming upon the planet at this time, that
are helping to bring about this population explosion, are coming here knowing
that they are not going to move into immortality within the physical body. That
is going to be for a small grouping. It is going to be for a very dedicated
grouping that will extend their physical lives. But those that come onto the
planet knowing that they may be a part of the great earth changes, knowing that
their lives may be a momentary light upon the surface of the earth, but they
know the power that their transformation will have upon the consciousness of
not only the earth, but all of the humanities that are involved.
    You see, as human beings you need to be shocked out of your
complacency, out of your apathy. Sometimes it is the only way that you learn.
So there are shocks coming to your systems that will literally jolt you into
other realities of being. If you were to find out that 20 million people died
in a matter of a moment, and if you were to look upon the wreckage of it, it
might jolt you into another reality. So, the groupings are coming because they
are knowing that through their intention the purpose of having this many
humanities on the planet is going to bring about a planetary shift in
consciousness because the activities of this many people cannot help but make a
psychic impact upon the evolutionary process of Adam Cadmon man.
    QUESTION: If a volcano erupts and 2 million people are killed, do these
2 million people also benefit from having taken part in the experiment and
having placed themselves in that position? Are they also involved in the growth
process?
    PLEIADIANS: Absolutely. There are 5 billion people on your planet at
this time. Shortly, within the next five years you are going to hear much
discussion about controlling the population although there will be no
controlling it because you are in the midst of discovering your freedoms. It is
something that is out of control. We are seeing that in the 1990's at some
point you are going to have a doubling and there are going to be 10 billion
people upon your planet. 10 billion beings fighting for consciousness, fighting
for breath, for air, for a place to be. Have you taken a trip lately and looked
at your highways and freeways and airports to see how many of you are out and
about? Can you imagine that that will be doubled in a number of years?
    What will happen is that you will reach a point, and you are quite near
this point, when you overload the circuitry of the planet. There will have to
be a shift, a tilt to take it to a greater state of awareness. There will come
a time, we guarantee it, where there will be mass group exiting off the planet.
Mass death. These groups tend to bring about an alteration of consciousness.
Those who remain upon the planet in physical reality are those who will alter
the structure of the planet.
    We would like to incorporate with this what you would be doing as you
begin your intensive study of working in the astral plane. This is going to be
your project. Once you get yourself involved in this you will find that it will
be a life's work. You are going to become pioneers in this area. You will come
to work together for an amount of time. Many of you will eventually go off and
lecture, perhaps write books from the experiences that you will have as you
learn to become spiritual creators and travelers on the astral plane. You will
be able, when you are capable, to get out to what is called the corridor of
time. It is a place that at this time you would need to be guided to find this
location. Once someone has shown you how to ride this corridor, you will go
there astrally in groupings and you will project yourself into different time
segments of your own future to see what probabilities are most prevalent and to
see what preparation you will need to work with the changes that will come
through the masses working together to alter the planet.
    It is very interesting what lies ahead for you. You will be quite
occupied and quite rewarded for the work that you will do. When you master
these skills and techniques many of the struggles that you presently have will
no longer exist because you will be able to move in a realm that will enhance
the picture that you presently have of reality. Your means and methodology for
securing prosperity and securing monies and securing all kinds of desires, will
be closer to hand and you will have a much clearer picture as to certain
decisions that you would make.
    QUESTION: When I think of these earth changes, I don't see how I can
really plan anything.
    PLEIADIANS: You cannot. What do you want to plan for'?
    QUESTION: If I want to go to film school, the only places to go are Los
Angeles, New York and Chicago and I heard they're going to be wiped out.
    PLEIADIANS: When the time comes for you to make a decision to do
something, knowing your intention, knowing your exposure to the expansion of
yourself, if it is in your best interest to [do something] it will all work out
for you as if someone had planned the entire episode. If it is not to work, if
it is not the timing to get involved in [something] then doorways will be
slammed in your face.
    You go about your life, all of you, with your intentions. You need to
have great flexibility with how those intentions can be played out. It is a
limitation for you to buy into the idea that film can only be studied in those
three places. It seems that that would be the case. We are saying that if you
had your heart bent on studying film you could create it anywhere that you are
wanting it because someone that would be a great film director, or whatever,
could be spending years in retirement and looking for someone to be a student.
    What we are saying is keep your dream. Don't give that dream up. Simply
open the probabilities as to how you will learn about what you are wanting. You
all get stuck in this. You think you have one or two choices as to how you can
receive something or how something can be done for you. For all you know, you
may go to the beach one weekend and be walking along the beach and find
something upon the sand and pick it up and it belongs to someone. It is their
wallet or something. So you return it to them and they thank you and invite you
in for tea and it turns out that they were in the movies for fifty years and
they are coming here three times a year for a month to do some work.
    You never know how spirit is going to set up a situation for you.
Remember, you are at the point where you are to recognize, those of you who
choose this, that you are employed by spirit. When you really wish to make the
acceleration and to make the big leap in what you are, you are employed by
spirit. Spirit has no limitations. Spirit does not require that you pass any
tests to get into school. Spirit will give you lessons for free with no
tuition. Let spirit arrange for you what you are wanting and trust yourself.
Intend that when the earth changes and the shifts in consciousness come about
upon the planet that you will be safe and provided for and you will be flexible
with what your choices will be.
    QUESTION: Since we create our realities, with enough massive thought
and loving light can we stop the earth changes from happening?
    PLEIADIANS: Many have asked this question. You are thinking again that
the earth changes would be bad because life would be annihilated. Correct?
Remember that life came here to help, to participate. So some lives make their
translation knowing the effect on consciousness. You are forgetting everything
is integrated. Everything is all one. You, yourselves, may be able to bond and
secure light-wise an area that you may live within. And you, yourselves, may
miss any kind of deep catastrophe. Yet, in general, you are not going to stop
the changes that are necessary to bring about the shift in consciousness.
    You may alter the severity or you may alter one aspect of it. But, in
general, the pulse of the world is moving towards something and all you need to
do is look in your newspapers. Thirty or forty years ago, do you know how many
earthquakes there were? In a year there were a handful that many years ago. Now
there are thousands in one year. Each year they increase more and more and
more. These are your earth changes.
    Sometimes we don't like the word "earth changes" because it gives all
of you the idea that the earth is going to crack down the middle and that there
is going to be horrible devastation. There are going to be changes, definitely.
But, as we said, the earth changes have been building your weather patterns.
All of these are about earth changes because they capture the attention of man
and make them think. The purpose of all of this is to bring the species upon
the planet to the brink of understanding that you are spiritual beings and not
material beings. The bridging of spiritual self is the whole idea of this shift
in consciousness. To take away the over-emphasis of the material world, the
struggle of man, the competition of man, the need to go outside of the home to
work, to bring monies in, to live in the material world, this is what you are
moving away from.
    It is a time when Mother Earth is cleansing herself, when she is
shaking off the shivers of a fever. It is like she is birthing something.
    Each one of you has allowed yourself to search inside of your own
[personal] earth and to shake it up and to recultivate it and to go through
your emotional furrows and plant new ideas of being, new patterns of energy. In
a sense, you have gone through it already and now you are going to project
outward what you have done and let the earth demonstrate to the rest of
humanity what to do. This will bring about a cleansing. It will bring about a
restructuring and bring about the coming together of a brotherhood upon the
planet.
    QUESTION: Can you talk a little bit about how we can juggle our
schedules to fit in all of the things we want to be doing?
    PLEIADIANS: That, indeed, can be a challenge. As you reach this
sweetness of days, this ripeness of your being, all of a sudden you will find
that almost anything that you turn your hand to you will become quite
proficient in. You will find that there will be a multitude of areas to learn
about.
    Always do that for yourself which facilitates you feeling good first.
It does not mean that it has to be first thing in the day. It means that it is
your first priority at some point during the day. That during the day this must
be done. That means breathing. That means eating properly. That means
exercising and utilizing the physical vehicle in a proper way. Those things
must come first. The breathing, the ingestion of good food and the proper
expansion of energy, physical exchange of the body. And meditation. As you do
these things on a regular basis you will find that you will have much more
energy and you will have to prioritize what you are wanting. You will fit it in
if you feel good physically.
    Often people get busy and they say, "I need to do this, this, this and
this and I don't have time." After awhile, you cannot do all the things you
wish to do because your body is not up to par. Always put your physical vehicle
first.
    Let yourselves move with grace and dignity throughout your days. There
are many adventures ahead and we are certain that you will all be upon them. We
will do whatever we can to bring you the assistance and the energy needed to
bring about the great transformation of earth.

    'The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. They have formed a tremendous society which operates with
love, with ideas and ideals that we are yet unfamiliar with. The Pleiadians
call themselves our ancient family because many of us came here from the
Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth. The Pleiadians are here
as ambassadors from another universe to help Earth through her transition from
the third dimension to the fourth dimension and to assist each of us in our
personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.
    Barbara Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from North
Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. The strength and purity of the message
she is bringing very quickly captured the hearts of many seekers looking to be
all that they can be Barbara has channeled at various Expos and for groups
across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and Japan.
    You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections, P. O. Box 6521, Raleigh,
NC 27628.

Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694

Copyrighted by Barbara  Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine with
permission.

For more information on the Pleiadian s Contact

Don Showen 408-974-9544 work  408-865-1768 Home
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!decwrl!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: In Search of the Exalted Self-Pleiadians15
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 08:56:53 GMT
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10311 alt.alien.visitors:6090 sci.skeptic:24632


 A Conversation With The Pleiadians Excerpted from the tape: In Search of the
Exalted Self

    We want to encourage you to seek the exalted self. In search of the
exalted self is a quest that is well worthwhile. It is quite a quest, indeed.
       You do not have to work with us continuously, or to work with anyone
continuously to gather information The only continuity that is needed is for you
to continuously work with yourself and to seek the meaning of what we call the
exalted self. Feel. What does that mean the exalted self? Triumphant. Liberated.
Joyous in achievement. The highest in attainment.
       Your planet is in desperate need of committed entities who are in search
of the exalted self. The continuity that we have been speaking of that will
behoove you to bring in to your lives, is that from moment to moment you know
inside your being that you are committed to discover this exaltation. This
exaltation can be translated in words as a frequency, as a wave of feeling, as a
vibration. You all understand vibration in terms of Light and sound. Vibrations
are ongoing. They carry forms of intelligence. They transmit forms of
intelligence as well. When you look to yourself and do not forget that you are
on this path and you continuously remind yourself that you are pulling Light
into your body and that you are seeking to raise the frequency of your physical
being, to defy the laws of man and to alter the frequency of the planet, this
kind of continuity can do more than all of the books and the tapings in the
world.
       Your commitment to that exalted self there is nothing stronger. Once you
make that commitment and once you speak to the gods and the goddesses, you
commit yourself to the energy of Light, to the energy of exaltation and uplifted
frequency. Then you are marked. Then you must live according to what these
energies put before you as you call for your task to be accelerated.
       Many humans are very concerned about what is going on on the global
scene. First of all, understand that the global scene is never telling you the
truth to start with so you must not be worried about what the global scene is
doing. Always in those terms there is a divine blueprint, a higher plan that is
operating. You must learn at this stage of your development to begin to have
direct translation of the divine blueprint. In other words, absolute confidence,
knowing what is going, on at all times. This is where we want your commitment to
move in to.
       Our intention is to put a spark of life, a greater spark of life and
Light inside each of you. We intend that the time that we have to speak to you
is compounded upon itself so that information is transmitted on many, many
levels and you can receive many moons' worth of instruction by simply being in
receptivity .
       QUESTION: I have a question about being grounded. I think I know what it
is to be grounded and sometimes I think I forget.
       PLEIADIANS: To be grounded is something that many do not comprehend the
necessity of. You will all soon find out that when you move into greater and
greater acceleration if you do not have a ground, something to connect you, to
pull the worlds into one, you can have difficulty with the nervous system. The
importance of being grounded as one alters one's frequency is this when
frequency changes, when more Light comes into the body, the typical vehicle
begins to receive much more data. Sometimes you get very bored living in your
world and you just want to come into data receptivity. If you are not grounded
you would not have a way of having that information enter your reality and
putting it to use. It could simply overload your system or you would not be able
to translate what you are getting and not be able to be calm.
       You need to balance many worlds at once. How do you do this? By
intention. By practice. By decree. Grounding allows worlds to merge and it
allows you to access many worlds. It allows you to feel surges of energy and
then to direct those surges of energy where you need them, when you need them to
become super-human. A good way to ground yourself is to go outside and sit on
the ground. Go outside and be in nature. Stand next to a tree. Or sit next to a
tree for awhile. Or put your chair in the sun and read a book with the sun
shining on you. Or go swimming or put your feet in water. These are the
elements. They make up the Earth so you can feel them. Your jobs as you evolve,
as the entire species moves to merge dimensions, your nervous systems must be
able to translate all of this information that will blow the socks off of how
you define your world. Absolutely. It is coming. In the last year the
information that you may have known for years is becoming much more public. Many
more humans who are not interested in extraterrestrials are interested in
personal development. They are aware that there is a growing movement. Something
is changing. All over the world. It is not just in the United States. There is a
conflict at this time of energies. You could call it a skirmish. You could call
it a grand battle. The battle is going to become grander still. It is whose
frequency is going to prevail on this planet and who is going to own and
manipulate and train your frequency. And who are you as a frequency, in disguise
as a human, and what specifically is your job in this time? It is essential to
know who you are, to know what you are doing when you are doing it. As you
become interdimensional and multi-dimensional and as the frequencies alter and
the energies accelerate, what occurs is that your body goes through drastic
rapid change. Change that the nervous system, the conveyer of information, must
handle.
       Many of you know how to cook and use an oven. Some things you must bake
at 350! for a certain amount of time and that is all there is to it. What is
happening on your planet now is that many humans operate at 350! frequency when
the frequency is up to 450! and 500! now and they are going to get burned if
they do not get taken out and find a way to ground themselves or integrate the
experience. Let the buzzer go off to warn them that they are in many realities.
       You must learn to handle many realities at once to realize you are doing
it and then to have a place, this your Earth, to translate the information into.
You would not be here if it wasn't important for you to ground information and
energy into the Earth. So, whenever you are finding yourself electrified or
energized, you must realize when you are in an altered state. You must realize
how many versions of altered states there are. Then you must instruct yourself
to become a conduit, like a big pipeline. When you realize that you are in an
altered state and you are being given information, healing energy, exaltation,
upliftment, act as a pipeline. Funnel it through yourself. Acknowledge,
recognize that you are in a multi-dimensional expression. Register it. Do not
analyze it. Let it filter through and into the Earth. It will make more sense
later on.
       A QUESTION: I have been having some experiences that I would call being
in an altered state. I like some aspects of it. What I don't like about it is
not being used to it and not knowing how to function in a normal way.
       PLEIADIANS: People are getting on the band wagon. They are getting
serious. They are getting committed. You must be committed all of the time. If
these gifts, these abilities are becoming first-hand experience for any of you,
you must learn to work with them. It is like someone is dumping barrels full of
gold in your back yard and you are saying, "Gosh darn it, the gold is wrecking
the grass." The lawn isn't as beautiful as it used to be because all of that
gold is being dumped there. Whenever you get an experience, learn to participate
within your experience. Be a full participant within your physical body. Enjoy
it and have a good time with it and learn how to simultaneously observe your
experience, the impact of your experience, the affect your experience has on
other people, on yourself, the results you get from all of your experiences.
That means that whenever something of an extraordinary nature comes into being
you can say to yourself, "Oh, goody goody, here it is again. What can I learn
from this?" You can begin, when you are not having these experiences, to
fantasize, to take charge of your life and act as if you can command or move one
of these experiences the next time one sneaks up on you. It is the same way that
some of you have learned to come awake in a dream and command your dream and
stop being chased by boogie men. Or to learn how to make the bell ring when you
are just about to get an "F." Or learn how to wake up in a dream and say, "Hey,
this is a dream. I am out of here." That kind of belief and that kind of
intention that you can have over all experiences of life you must as
individuals, you must as a species, cultivate.
       We guarantee you it is going to get tough. There is going to be such a
vast acceleration within this decade that many will have no idea how to
translate all of the experiences. Not only are the dimensions going to merge and
you must be able to be this meeting place of spirit, you balance all of this. It
is a tremendous task. Not only do you have all of these worlds to balance, at
the same time the world that you call 3D is going to shatter itself as far as
its historical perspective goes.
       The Earth is going through an initiation at this time. You are going
through an initiation because you are part of the Earth. You cannot separate
yourself from this system. The Earth is transforming itself. It is intending to
act as a domino for your solar system. It is intending to merge multiple worlds
into one and to be grounded enough to allow all those worlds to exist and to be
able to translate the experience. This is what your Earth is up to. So, of
course, you all must be up to the same thing.
       QUESTION: I don't seem to have control of getting myself back to a normal
state.
       PLEIADIANS: You must learn to cultivate it. You cultivate anything by
your will, by intending that it is so. How does one learn to ride a bicycle?
First of all, wanting to get a bike, wanting to ride it and then persistently
sticking to it because one wants to do it and suddenly one is riding a bike.
Imagine that you are in that state. Imagine that you have control over it.
Imagine how you would act. Act as if and it is. Everything you want, humans, you
must decree, determine and pull into reality by your will. Not someone else's
will and not the laws that someone else says is possible or impossible. Yours.
This is your exalted assignment.
       We would also suggest that as the energy accelerates and as you have more
to balance inside of the body that you be much more kind to the body, that you
drink plenty of water, that you practice oxygenation and breathing on a daily
basis, that you stretch or move the body in some way, acknowledge energy moving
through your body. We suggest you get some bodywork done. Many humans in the
influence of our words have been having their bodies Rolfed. They have been
having the skeletal system realigned. Many go to chiropractic. Many are working
on the emotional aspects, networking chiropractic. All kinds of things to allow
the body to integrate the energy.
       Another thing is that at this time you are working with a twelve chakra
system, seven inside the body and five outside of the body. These are energy
centers. These are information centers. They move you. They assist you. They
entrap you. They block you. By visualizing your seven energy centers moving, by
working with acknowledgement of the various centers and by asking the centers to
be opened by having bodywork done to open them, you allow yourself to accept a
greater belief in the concept that you can control energy. All we are here to do
is to convince you that you can do it, whatever it is that you want.
       QUESTION: You have mentioned before about the DNA structure in the body
changing and that extra strands of DNA are actually coming into the body. Can
you speak about this?
       PLEIADIANS: The evolving helixes are filled with information. They make
up your DNA. You have seen there are two strands of your DNA that look like a
ladder that is spiraled around. This spiral of the DNA is made up, each strand,
of millions of tiny infinitesimal light-encoded filaments just like fiber
optics. These fiber optics come together and allow a tremendous amount of energy
to be transmitted. If you take the idea of super-conductor coupled with fiber
optics and bring the super-conductor to a frequency or a temperature where it
can be accessible, you are on the verge of an information explosion in the
physical world.
       The physical world is a clue to the spiritual world. The world of spirit,
the world of self evolving is on the verge of a room temperature super-conductor
coming together with fiber optics. Information explosion. Cheap energy. Free
energy. Everything given to you. It all has to do with the evolving lightencoded
filaments.
       At one time in your history certain creator gods who put themselves in
charge of your planet needed to have you operate in a certain way in order to
control you. They needed to unplug your intelligence and so they did. So the
light-encoded filaments were scattered. They were not connected. They are
beginning to connect now because of the mutation process that is timed because
certain humans have agreed to evolve, to merge many worlds and to be able to
attempt a noble effort to translate other worlds of reality onto this world. The
quest to translate worlds and to make them merge and all make sense to free
people, to free yourself.
       These helixes evolve in sets of three. First the one starts and it makes
three. Then three more evolve. Then three more. Then finally you have twelve.
Twelve strands of helixes bundled together individually, a multitude of
light-encoded filaments. When these twelve helixes, twelve strands of many, many
light-encoded filaments begin to vibrate within the body, each of those strands
corresponds to a chakra center.
       The chakra centers are your energy centers. There are multitudes of
chakra centers. There are multitudes of potential helixes that can form. Right
now the most, the common denominator that the consciousness of man can handle
without destroying himself is twelve. Many humans could handle multitudes more
and activate many more chakra centers and many will. It is the status quo that
is being raised now, that is being established, a new standard. So this
evolutionary process will take place. For some it will take a while. All of this
must travel through frequency of human encountering human around the planet
because each human contact broadcasts it. So, of course, after a while the
telepathic storehouse of it is so vast that it covers the planet and it becomes
what man is.
       These twelve helixes plug into the twelve chakra systems seven in the
body, five outside the body. The seven in the body are not too difficult to work
with because if you allow yourself to feel, you can physically touch and locate
all of these places. It is when you get to the five outside of the body that you
must begin to find new ways to figure out what is going on with something that
you don't even know for sure is real.
       The eighth chakra is in your realm of activity. It hovers anywhere
between twelve inches and for some people further than that. Most keep the
eighth chakra center close. The ninth will stay close as well, within a few
feet, until the nine helixes are formed. Once the nine helixes are formed this
chakra will move out into the atmosphere of the Earth so that it becomes more of
an Earth chakra, connecting into the gridwork. It is a link. The tenth, eleventh
and twelve move much further. The tenth chakra once it is in line and plugged in
will be in your solar system. The eleventh will move out into your galactic
system and the twelfth will be located and anchored someplace in this universe.
You will receive and be affected by information from these personal centers.
These personal centers are collective centers as well. Just as your other
personal chakra centers are collective centers as well. You must learn to
translate the experience. You can see life is not going to be too much the same
anymore.
       Not all people on the planet are going through this right now because
they are not all coded to respond at this particular time. Each person came in
with a certain order, a map of when and where and how you can best operate. Many
of you are learning how to follow that plan of the self that will lead you to
discover the exalted self. Once you learn how to do it, life becomes effortless.
Everything does become quite effortless because you become a vehicle for Light
and you are moved by your intention to commit.
       Different humans will be hit with the changes at different times. It
would not do to have it all at once. It would create chaos. There is a certain
order that is needed. As each one is able to translate the experience, they can
turn to someone to assist them. For the beginning people it can be very
difficult. You are the way showers. Once you are able to do it you make the path
and show the others.
       The more humans that can translate their experience, the more humans that
can go and have experiences and not feel out of control with them but can
cultivate them, go into them, gather information, change probabilities, move
onto the corridor of time, alter their own lives and then come out with complete
and total use of will as to how they use these altered states, the more that can
do this, then the acceleration will be absolutely phenomenal. Then, when there
are that many consciousnesses on the planet registering that kind of ability,
then the whole network that organizes and monitors human consciousness alters
itself and more energy is able to come onto the planet because there are those
that can accommodate it.
       Everyone must learn to accommodate this energy. It must learn to be
housed. It is like an oil well. What good do oil wells do you if they are
untapped and shooting off here, there and everywhere? Very little. It is just a
mucky mess. When, however, you take an oil well, natural gas or a waterfall and
you insert your will for it and you put a purpose together or a way of directing
the energy, then wealth occurs for those who direct those natural resources. You
are being given an incredible natural resource at this time and you must tap it
and direct it and you will all become very wealthy individuals. If you want
wealth in the material world then that may be what you draw for yourself. But
you will become wealthy in the realms of accessibility, in the realms of
mastery.
       QUESTION: I have a question about Light and Dark forces. The New Age
movement talks about calling on the Light forces all of the time and never
giving any energy to the Dark forces. I'm beginning to feel that the Dark forces
are us, too, and we need to recognize that and heal it and integrate t.
       PLEIADIANS: Yes. 3D is headed for a collision of dimensions not a
collision of worlds, a collision of dimensions. Many dimensions are going to
come crashing into each other. Some of these dimensions may seem horrifying and
very frightening. The test, the initiation and initiation is always meaning to
move through another reality to conquer it, to transmute it the initiation is to
be faced with these energies and entities that seemingly are of incredible
darkness and to understand that they are coming to merge with you because they
are you, they are part of your multi-dimensional self and you are the standard
bearer and you are Light. Dark will come to Light.
       Be very clear when you deal with these things. If you are hesitating do
not do it. Be clear. Many people will befriend or encounter something that
perhaps would frighten them in order to bring about a transmutation, in order to
bring about a bridging of consciousness. Some of these entities that have been
talked about on your planet, beings from space that are coming, the reptilians,
the Greys, etc. are all real. You will have a chance to meet them all
eventually.
       When you think of your soul, you think of your soul as you have been
taught, that human is exclusive. When you picture your soul you picture an
evolution of human incarnations. What we want you to understand is that as you
grow up in consciousness the story gets bigger. As you evolve in consciousness
and you mature yourself to a certain frequency of life and you are able to grasp
certain concepts and you are able to intend to implement them into your life the
story gets bigger. You are convinced of the basics and so now the blanks can be
filled in. You exist in multitudes of guises and forms. Things that you would
think would be heinous, you must meet and integrate in order to evolve your
soul.
       Knowing how clever Prime Creator is, would that not be a plan of Prime
Creator to give all kinds of guises, all kinds of opportunities of expression
and then to have them meet on different planets at different times and they
would all be the self? The self must recognize and realize it and bring about a
unification, a harmony where all species can offer each other what they want.
When that point comes from self-realization, when you seek that exalted self and
you understand who that exalted self is and when you meet the portions of
yourself in physical reality, you will ask, "What can I do for you? I know what
we have in common." Not, "Your skin is different from mine." Or, "You have
scales and I have smooth skin."
       There is a meeting point of consciousness and Earth is the appointed
place. That meeting is beginning to gather in many different ways. In order for
the meeting to be a very successful meeting it must be very well orchestrated.
Different consciousnesses must be introduced to one another so as not to upset
or disturb or alienate any.
       Light forces as we define them  Light means the promoting, the dispensing
and the sharing of information. Dark means controlling and withholding
information. Think about this and feel this. You have come onto this planet with
a coded blueprint to carry Light and to bring about a huge planetary
transformation. And you come to be the standard bearer of your soul, the portion
of your soul that is going to lead, the portion of your soul that says, "I set
the pace here and the pace is Light and information, no more being in the dark."
       Think you maybe that there are portions of yourself that are in the dark
that don't know how to find the Light except through you and they want it as
well? They want solutions, answers. What you may be feeling is not necessarily
the intent of the dark force but the emotional makeup of the dark force the fear
of that which vibrates out of lack of information. You all know when you are
informed you feel much better. If you are sitting in a room and it is dark and
you are hearing noises and you are thinking something is in the corner you feel
much better when you are informed, do you not? Portions of yourself that are
uninformed are going to come to be informed. How do you do it? You shed Light,
you share Light. Say, "I intend for all of my other selves to come along on this
journey too and for them to get it as well." It is quite simple. We like to make
it sound practical in your terms because if you can feel it is practical you
will make it practical, and then it is yours.
       QUESTION: Can you speak about ways to strengthen ourselves?
       PLEIADIANS: What we suggest is not always how humans think they can
strengthen themselves. It works very, very well. It is making an appointment
with yourself and saying, "I love you, Self. You are a good Self. You are a
wonderful Self. You are my Self. You are my own Self. You are my best Self. You
are me here in this reality and I love you. You are magnificent. You are
A-Number l. The best Self."
       When you give yourself the dignity of your own love as if you were
royalty receiving the accolades of the people. when you do that for the self
that you are, the physical vehicle that is yours to operate with, everything
changes and strength becomes yours because you believe in and love who you are.
When you believe and love the vehicle that you are everything starts to go your
way. The big thing is making the commitment to believe it is possible that you
deserve love. No one else has to love you. You are not here to go around
gathering love from other people to convince yourself that you are worth it.
       You are here to master a very difficult task in a system that is dark
that gives very little input, stimulation, information about the true story. You
are here to do the impossible. By loving yourself and making that commitment the
number one step from which you operate every day, it falls into place.
       QUESTION: I have noticed in my personal life that it seems that men and
women think very differently. What can we learn about each other that would make
it easier to understand each other?
       PLEIADIANS: You will see that for a while it will seem there is even
greater separation between man and woman as more men come into crisis in order
to feel. The difference is a cultural difference. It is a learned cultural
difference. It is a cultural difference that has been purposely put to separate
you. If you look at the myths that your Western religions are based upon, the
whole role of the female is almost an embarrassment to the species. So in modern
times it was purposely recorded in history by those who wish to uphold a
patriarchal point of view that a woman was a trouble-maker, carried the curse
and was inferior. Her worst factor was the curse, the menstruation because it
made her erratic and she was moody and you could never trust her feelings. She
was noted to feel, particularly around that thing which was called her curse.
       The old stories of the magic of the female, the creator, the one able to
bring birth, the one who had the mystery of the blood, the life force, bleeding,
able to put that life force back into the Earth, those stories have been buried
and covered away. The goddess who loves and feels and nurtures. The man used to
have the goddess energy inside and would feel the need for the goddess.
       In the last number of thousand years, in order to better control the
planet, all of the myths have been given you by extraterrestrials. The
extraterrestrials have seeded all of your religious institutions. You are an
experiment. At times it has been an uplifting and loving experiment. In recent
times it has moved into incredible decay. You, as members of the Family of
Light, have come to raid this planet and to pull Light back on it so that that
nonsense never ever need be believed again. Man and woman are meant to
complement each other.
       At this time the best understanding that you can have is that in the male
vibration, because of conditioning, because of genetics and because of a weak
will within the male species, they believe that they cannot feel. Remember,
feeling is emotion. How many times have we showed you where emotions can take
you? Emotion is the key to getting off this planet. It is the key to figuring
out the multi dimensional self and healing it and becoming one. By men being in
charge of this planet for the last number of thousand years, the patriarchal
society, the woman taking a position underground actually, not even a back seat,
it has not even been in consideration. You have been automatons. You have been
performing roles women to produce children, to produce more wealth. Remember
emotion is consciousness for others to feed off of.
       When you truly wake up, when you really, really wake up, you will
understand that every time a baby is born your wealth increases. One day there
will be communities who will live honoring each individual's contribution
because they occupy a physical body and they are in charge of a consciousness
that can be cultivated to do anything. The more consciousnesses that pitch in
together, guess what they can do? This is what we are striving for. We wish to
convince you of your power so that you as a human species can put it to work. So
that you can feel that you have every tool that you need for the times that are
coming. And you do. You have your will and you have your mind.
       The harmonics that the planet is looking for is a balance of self. Of
course, the self is a composite of all things. You must balance all of your
extraterrestrial selves, all of your multi-dimensional selves, your male and
female.
       QUESTION: I have a question about fear. Sometimes I can't distinguish
between being fearful and being practical. How do you know whether you're
feeding the fear or are you allowing yourself to become a victim of fear?
       PLEIADIANS: Look at the energy packet that you are creating. Examine
fear. It is useful. Do not be afraid of it. Do not say to yourself, "I have
overcome all of my fears," because then there will be one right around the
corner looking at you.
       Fears are useful. They help you self correct so that you do not lose your
life. They also show you your destructive thought patterns. Whenever you get a
big fear, you must examine to see, "Is my life in threat here or is this me
creating a reality or am I picking up on the mass psyche?" All of this you must
learn to discern. How do you learn to discern it? By looking back over yourself
and asking yourself, "Where is this fear coming from? What is it about?"
Examine. Look at yourself. Look at your dreams to see what fearful things are
coming in the dreams. Sometimes when portions of yourself that have greater
information than you do, when these portions want to assist you in something and
you dismiss it, it will come to you in a dream so that you have some premonition
in order to take action or not to take action. All events are designed to bring
optimum growth. If you can remember that then it's a piece of cake.
        The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star
system the Pleiades. They call themselves our ancient family because many of us
came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth. The
Pleiadians are here as ambassadors to help Earth through her transition from the
third to the fourth dimension and to assist each of us in our personal endeavors
of awakening, remembering and knowing.
       The Pleiadians' first book The Bringers of the Dawn: The New Evolution of
Man will be available soon from Bear & Co. Publishers.
       Barbara  Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from North
Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. Barbara has channeled at various Expos
and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and Japan.
       You may contact Barbara at , Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh, NC 27628
Connecting Link Magazine 9392 Whitneyville Rd. Alto, MI. 49302-9694
Copyrighted by Barbara Marciniak Reprinted from Connecting Link
Magazine with permission.

For more information on the Pleiadian s Contact Don Showen 408 974-9544 work 408
865-1768 home
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 May 92 23:21:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert J. Hall) writes:
>
>Please excuse my strong doubts over this issue of 'Alien abduction', but I
>have a very difficult time believing that extra-terrestrial beings capable
>of interstellar travel would use such primitive techniques as Abduction and
>Hypnosis to gather information.

>been supposedly showing up on our radar screens!

An observation here would be that while we can see them on the
radar screens, we can't do a whole heck of a lot about them...

>
>If interstellar life forms want to observe our civilization without our knowledge or consent, they are certainly capable of doing so.

If they can get around with impunity, why hide?  If people are ridiculed
for speaking out, and no one believes them, why hide?

>I have yet to see a meaningful explanation as to why a supposedly advanced
>civilization would want or need to bring a primitive human on their vessel,
>employ the psychological technique of hypnosis (that is probably unique to
>human kind) to erase knowledge of the interaction, then release these persons
>to possibly recover their memory of the event.

The answer to that is in _Intruders_ and other works...  biogenetic engineering.

>
>Nanorobots would be a far more efficient method of completely and irrevoc-
>ably removing all short term memories after a supposed interaction.

If they don't use nanotechnology, they likely have a reason.  In fact,
I haven't see us come up with a rational view of its utilization, yet.

What I want to know is just how these minor molecular nanobots are going
to store their programming...

Personally, I think it's more likely that we'll see bioengineering take the
lead in developing means to make these changes...

Besides that, the abductors are described as having quite advanced means
of manipulating the human organism via humdrum things as electric shock...

>**** WHY WOULD 'THEY' NEED TO ABDUCT AND HYPNOTIZE PEOPLE ??? ***
What if that's the most simple and practical way to do it?

Why would we need to purchase, groom and train dogs for competitive reasons?
We certainly have motivations that in the eyes of other countries look
bizarre...  while others have motivations that to us look equally strange.

Why would these presumed abductors act by any rationale that was developed
by us?  For all we know, we could be cattle.  Do you ponder how a cow
chews its cud?  Does it wonder why some of us don't eat its flesh on
Friday and some do?

Rick



--
Rick Pavek                            | IBM        |
[e-mail]            | UBM        |  from
AppleLink:  kuryakin                  | We all BM  |  David Gerrold's
rodney:[e-mail]  | 4IBM       |  _When Harlie Was One_
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!battin
From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Summary: Aliens chew cud and die!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 09:10:03 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Robert J. Hall) writes...

[stuff deleted...]

>
>
>This is circular reasoning. They undoubtedly have access to technology that
>allows them to do a more thorough job of removing recent memories than is
>available through crude hypnosis.

To begin with, what makes people think that the fact that some people claim
to have recovered memories of abduction experiences using "crude hypnosis"
has _any_ bearing on how the memories were tampered with in the first place?
Since I am not well-read up on all the details of abduction reports, can
anyone who _is_ answer this question:  Do the abductees report just _what_
the aliens have done to them to mess up their memories?

:-) alert
(For instance, has someone reported that, before leaving the craft, the
aliens made them stare at a swinging pocket watch, while repeating,
"you will remember none of the last hour" over and over in a quiet, persuasive
voice, as their eyes got _so_ tired, and their eyelids got _so_ heavy, and
the voice was _so_ persuasive, and zzzzz,....
what was I saying?)
:-) mode off

To make my point perfectly clear, just because we use hypnosis to recover
a memory of an abduction _does_not_provide_any_evidence_ as to the method
reputedly used to produce the memory lapse in the first place.
Arguments which proceed by saying things like "The aliens should obviously
have better technology than the use of X, Y or Z indicates" should at least
present some evidence that X, Y or Z has actually been done (or has been
claimed to have been done) by aliens in the first place.  Otherwise, all you
have is a straw-man.

And if those with access to more data than I reply that abductees _do_
in fact report that the aliens use hypnosis, then I retract all of the above
objections.

They are then replaced with the question: What, in particular, causes you to
use "undoubtedly" to describe a conclusion about the aliens' grasp of
particular forms of technology?  After all, I daily use a level of technology
that allows me to split atoms, yet I would starve if forced to live off
my non-existent farming skills.  My access to one form of high tech says
nothing at all about my access to any other form.

[nano-debate deleted]

> > Why would we need to purchase, groom and train dogs for competitive reasons?
> > We certainly have motivations that in the eyes of other countries look
> > bizarre...  while others have motivations that to us look equally strange.
>
> > Why would these presumed abductors act by any rationale that was developed
> > by us?  For all we know, we could be cattle.  Do you ponder how a cow
> > chews its cud?  Does it wonder why some of us don't eat its flesh on
> > Friday and some do?
>
>Fair enough. I can think of any number of rationalizations as to why an
>alien race would perform these actions. (Ex: The aliens are actually pets
>retained by a vastly more intelligent race. The somewhat stupid pet aliens
>are sometimes allowed to visit Earth to 'play' with the equally stupid
>humans. ;-)

Which is why arguing such points is futile, at least 'til we can get our
hands on 'em!

>--
>--
>  Robert J. Hall
>  Systems Analyst, Boeing Computer Services

Gene
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From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
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Date: 28 May 92 09:46:01 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes...
>
>You can see UFOs *anywhere*, if you have enough faith! Just drive to a
>nice, deserted spot on a dark night, and look up. If you see something
>in the sky that you can't identify, then *you* are among that select few. Be
>careful not to try *too* hard to identify the object, or else you
>may succeed.

In all my years as an amateur astronomer, I have kept a lookout for UFO's.
The only time I ever saw anything even remotely like a typical UFO sighting,
I was in a car, and had the freedom to try to get closer.  Turned out to be
some very-peculiarly-lit helicopters doing some sort of night flying at a
military camp.  Maybe my faith just isn't strong enough.

>
>A word to the wise: afterwards, make up lots of new details when you
>tell about your sighting, and exaggerate a lot. That will reduce
>the danger that some uncaring skeptic might someday take your lovely
>UFO sighting away from you.

Well, I realize that you were being sarcastic, but, really, the tendency
for witnesses to "make up lots of new details" and "exaggerate" is so
typically _human_ of them, that I can't get too worked up about it,
myself.

>
>If this doesn't work, then go into a dark room at night. Light a candle,
>stand in front of a mirror, and begin chanting, "I believe in Whitley
                                                            ^^
>Strieber....."

Hey, Whitley Streiber _really_does_ exist.  My ouija board told me so!
Now you're being FAR too skeptical.  Shame!
:-)

>
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
>
>    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
>     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
>     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
>     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
>     table like a card cheat."
>                               - Martin Gardner

Gene
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From: [e-mail] (paul eng-yi tan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Earth Moves in an Extra-Terrestrial
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Date: 28 May 92 10:08:28 GMT
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I read a theory once...the reason that aliens have humanoid form is that
perhaps the humanoid form is the only possible one which could develop
technology (fire, manipulation, etc are not available to a dolphin form
for example). It seems likely, at present, that the only viable life is
carbon based life, but this is debatable...
Paul

--
Anyone who's into DEPECHE MODE talk to me! [e-mail]
MAIL ORDER: if you're looking for Japanese release CDs, Box Sets, and
Limited Editions/ Rare Releases, email me. I have a friend who can maybe
help U out....
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From: [e-mail] (Mako)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
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Date: 28 May 92 03:11:45 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:

> Hello Earth people
>
>      I hope this title is right.  I too am Earth people...
> I see a great division in this news group, why so much division?

The division is created among three classes of people: Moderate Believers,
Dyed-In-The-Wool-Skeptics (DITWS), and bunny-hugging new age bliss
ninnies (BHNABNs)
MBs
think that UFOs/extraterrestrial intelligent life _could_ exist, but want
to see evidence first.  They usually don't bother with adolescent flame
wars, and will stand up for DITWS and BHNABNs in their posts.  DITWS are
often funny and poke a lot of fun at BHNABNs because the latter will make
absurd, wholly unsubstantiated claims about the Life, Universe, and
Everything.  A good example is one woman who used to frequent this net,
Kathy, who said that the reason we couldn't see UFOs is because they
operated on a "different air vibrational frequency".  Ah, yes, Vibration
Science!  The stuff of '30s sci-fi operas...

That's why the division: people disagreeing with each other, which seems
like a pretty universal human thing to do.

>
> The phenomenon of E.T. is global, wow.  It must be clear that it is
> a true phenomena.

The point is that, no, it's not "clear that it is a true phenomena".  What
is clear is that a lot of people believe it is.  A lot of people thought
the Earth was flat, for that matter, but that don't make it so.

>  Has anyone considered the wide spread
> implications of this phenomenon?  It may be a subconscious, a mass
> subconscious desire to express something.  Is this mass desire to
> express...... a valid consideration?

A valid consideration of what?
I would agree that it could be a subconscious desire to express something,
or even that it IS an expression of something: doubt, fear about the
unknown (we see the universe as we know it as life-less and the human
species as alone, so we create alien friends, et cetera.)

Other people call this kind of phenomenon _delusion_ or _neurosis_,
depending on the complexity and facts of the case.

>      Repression sometimes is the trigger.  The trigger to
> expression of what is really at the core of the issue.
>
>      At this time I wonder if anyone considers the possibility of
> the GREY's being a dyeing race.  And let's suppose we, or our
> benign government, that through our leadership, the choice has been
> made to assist this race to survive?  And maybe this expression is
> linked to our knowing that we too are a dying race, only not as far
> as along?  And only through the synthesis of our races is survival
> possible?

A nice idea...but it's only a possibility.  My question is, what do you
have to say about it, other than musings?  Not that you shouldn't muse,
but the way you present it suggests that you actually believe in it and
are just being really tentative in your claim.

It's also a standard science fiction plot line.

>      And the other E.T.'s are only watching this great reunion?
> The bringing back of what is the GREAT denial.   Not only is the
> denial of nature a great threat to our survival, but the denial of
> technology?It may be we, as a human thing, are the key to the
> survival of a Whole life wave of non-human forms.  The GREYS!  THEY
> NEED US!  They are our Brothers and Sisters, just like the many
> other human forms of the seven sisters,

An contention for cosmological egalitarianism and the complementational
aspects of our various species.  Assuming, of course, that they exist.
You don't support it, though, so it's not an argument.

> AND WE NEED THEM!

For what? The keys to the cosmological pick up truck?  What?

> And the OTHERS are waiting for the time when we see this and accept it as
> truth.
>
>      The GRAYS are the DENIED part of our selves that we have
> pushed out into the unknown.  The possiblities of the human mind
> are unexplored!

In which case they aren't extraterrestrial!  In which case they aren't
"aliens", except in the metaphorical sense of the word.  In which case,
don't use ET "Grays" and ET civilization as an allegory for
self-alienation, just say, "Humans are alienated from themselves, nature,
and technology..." or whatever happens to fit your particular belief.

But if you're going to insist on TRUTH, as you put it, then you're going
to have to find some way to justify it.  Whether this involves soley
rational thought or empirical evidence, well, that's another story and I
don't know.  Either way, you'll have to make some sort of case for your belief.


> If something is out there first we must clear this issue!  Do
> we have a subconscious sense of denial of technology, or is it a
> subconscious sense of denial of nature?  Tech demands logic,
> nature demands intuition, which is best?  The battle rages on.
> The battle of the GREY's and HUMAN's is synonymous, have we put our
> battle outside ourself's? Is this the great denial?  Is this why
> we see the U.F.O.?

>      The people of science are in such denial of U.F.O.'s there is
> no place to turn for logic, I know, I am a student.  If a student
> wants to learn something out of the HALLS OF ACADEMIA feel sorry
> for that student!  This includes all aspects of PARANORMAL
> activities.
> The chance of linking any paranormal activity with research is out
> of the realm of academic reality.

>      Let's consider for a moment that all this U.F.O. stuff was a
> product of the HUMAN mind.

If that's true, then the arguments, points, and contentions that people
often try to make here--as well as yours if you agree with them--about
"Greys" being extra-terrestrial, ie., from outer space, are _wrong_
because their origin is the human mind, not Planet Xenon or whatever.

Which is exactly the point that a lot of people have been making...

> What a possible resource, so many
> ideas, so many theories.  Has anyone thought about this?  Not only
> the thought of bending the space-time stuff, but the stuff about
> communicating with the spirit world, the blend of science and
> intuition?
>      For all you reality, or should I say you're reality, people...

This strikes me as a typical anti-science or UFO-believer thing to say:
"Oh, for all you people who believe in 'rationality' and 'logic', have I
got something to say to you..."

No scientist worth her salt would ever sell you on the idea that their
model or theory IS reality.  Scientific models, or, to use Kuhn's word,
"paradigms" and theories are not formative in nature, they are
descriptive.  And even when there appears to be lots of evidence to
support one over the other, "belief" in the theory, to use belief loosely,
never goes beyond the facts of the case as we have a handle on them.
Otherwise, Kuhnsian "paradigm shift", or, more loosely, scientific
revolution, could never take place.

> DON'T FLAME ME, I'M PRETTY GOOD AT MATH AND SCIENCE...
> BUT I KNOW THERE'S SOMETHING MORE....
> AND IT'S NOT LOGICAL....

What is it?  I happen to think that the idea of a perfect synthesis
between what you call the intuitive and the rational does exist....I like
to think that in the human ontological project it is called _reason_.

> *****************************************************************
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> if you sign your name, you're committed to the TRUTH...........
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
>                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%%%%%%%
> MARK HOLLADAY
> [e-mail]

Mako

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julian Hayashi-Marsano/A Festive Latin with Warm Asiatic Tendencies       PF
e-mail: [e-mail]                                          RULES
"Why, no, I consider myself to have won a victory for the comic mews..."E.M.F.
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: "Fate" Replies to Electronic Publishing of Klass' "Crybaby"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 20:19:20 GMT
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[e-mail] (Theron Friedman) writes:

> Thanks to James Lippard for keeping things honest.
>
        Hey, I'll bust on Sheaffer for some things, but he doesn't quite
deserve the blame here. I was the person who originally posted Klass's
"Crybaby," at the request of Rick Moen-- the Bay Area Skeptics had problems
with their Usenet feed, and I had a copy on disk, so...

        Second, as far as I know, NO one has posted the Rawlins article-- not
even when this topics first came up here. Nobody's stopping anyone from
posting it. If you can get it-- and I got a copy simply by writing to FATE,
which keeps reprints handy-- feel free to retype all thirty pages.


Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
New Sig File Under Construction-- Light and Compact for your Usenet Pleasure.
"The recent problem with the satellite retrieval managed to prove one thing;
DeVries graduates really _do_ work for NASA."
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From: [e-mail] (Rolf Meier)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
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Date: 28 May 92 13:26:45 GMT
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In article <683k+7#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:

>>As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
>>substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
>>particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
>
>Generally, a conductor is a material with electrons in the conduction
>band. The definition is quite clear, and a good test of conductivity
>can be done with an ohmmeter. Metals are common conductors. None of
>the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
>definition. I am saying that the above statement is demonstratable false.

Why are you picking on Jeff like that?

Strictly speaking, all the items mentioned will conduct to some extent,
depending on their moisture content.

The point is that any material, dielectric or conductor, will have an
effect on TV signals, particularly the UHF channels.  Thus it is not
surprising to have the strange effects that the orignal poster described
when moving a metal object near his head.

Rather than be critical of Jeff's knowledge of electronics, you should
be sure that you know something of rf propagation.  Maybe you do, but
there was no need to put him down like that.

_______________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier                        Mitel Corporation
        "Everything You Know Is Wrong"
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
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Date: 28 May 92 15:01:25 GMT
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Robert,you write>


>You can see UFOs *anywhere*, if you have enough faith! Just drive to a
>nice, deserted spot on a dark night, and look up. If you see something
>in the sky that you can't identify, then *you* are among that select few. Be
>careful not to try *too* hard to identify the object, or else you
>may succeed.

>A word to the wise: afterwards, make up lots of new details when you
>tell about your sighting, and exaggerate a lot. That will reduce
>the danger that some uncaring skeptic might someday take your lovely
>UFO sighting away from you.

>If this doesn't work, then go into a dark room at night. Light a candle,
>stand in front of a mirror, and begin chanting, "I believe in Whitley
>Strieber....."

--

       > Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]


Comfort not in your slumber,for when you awaken it may be too late.

R.I.P.,

Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
NETOPS           |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 3rd world UFOs :-) [was Re: 3rd world UFOs? ]
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Date: 28 May 92 10:30:20 GMT
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It was previously reported here (sorry I forgot the posters name) that
there are no reports of UFOs from India.

Various people have followed up with posts either along the lines
that "Do you mean there are no reports because there are no UFOs over
India" or "There are UFOs, its just for various reasons no one reports
them".

There is a simple way to prove there are reports of UFOs seen over India.
That is for somebody to find a published report (or better still several
reports) and post it here with references. I looked in John Spencer's "UFO
Casebook" which is like a kind of atlas with short descriptions of one or
more reports for many individual countries. Whilst it contains reports for
a number of countries around India, it does not have a report from India
itself.

Whilst absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence, it would seem a
discussion which could be settled quickly by just a little evidence of
prescence.

Steve.

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services,
Clinical Research Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (R.J. Bartle)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 16:30:37 GMT
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[e-mail] (Anna Anderson) writes:

>[e-mail] (Charles Evans) writes:
>> Try Gulf Breeze, FL, right outside of Pensacola, the UFO sighting capital
>> of the world.

>According to a TV news report, at Gulf Breeze, Florida they have averaged a
>sighting every 3 days for a number of years.
  Maybee all these Aliens are visiting Suzi; she lives about 7 Miles to the
North of Gulf Breeze, a few years ago whe just used to get visits from m e n
but scince the recession has come alonge they cant afford her prices - so
there you have it a new commercial area opens up,(and squeezes tight
again..etc)..
  Yup - that`l be it thier UP at Suzie`s!

       (?)
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <s=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>The human body is not just the blood, and it is also not a conductor.
>
>Don't tell Leonard Bernstein. The rest of us are poor conductors; there

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Bernstein is aware that most of us are not
conductors. :^) In fact, his job probably depends upon this. If
everyone conducted well, there would be little reason to hire him.

>is absolute resistivity that defines a conductor. We're somewhere between
>semi-conductors and metals, closer to metals if the state has a nasty
>circuit to complete.

Is not contuctance the inverse of resistance? They are just two
ways to express how well a material conducts electricity. And even
insulators conduct. It seems that the resistance of conductors is
on the order of 10^-6 ohm/cm^3. Insulators are on the order of
10^14 ohm/cm^3, and semiconductors are in the tens of ohms/cm^3.
Dry skin is more like 100K ohms, which is more between a semiconductor
and an insulator.

If a conductor is defined as anything that conducts electricty, to
any extent whatsoever, then there are no insulators. And as this
seems to be the consensus, fine. This is getting nowhere. I withdraw
my comments. Those happy thinking of wood, furniture, etc as
conductors can go on doing so. This is clearly a matter of belief,
not physics.


Rich

[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Science and UFOlogy
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Whoever  said that science can't work to discover the  nature  of
UFOs  was  mistaken.  James M. McCampbell has  published  a  book
concerning  some  very sound scientific principles  that  can  be
applied  to  the study of this phenomenon.  Below is  an  excerpt
from  his book regarding the Soft Glow that is often reported  by
witnesses.  In the future, ParaNet will be posting such  excerpts
hoping  to generate some discussion on various ways that  science
can work to instrument and measure the phenomenon.  Your comments
are encouraged.

Excerpted  from UFOLOGY by James M. McCampbell (c) 1976, Page  25
and 26.

The  metallic  appearance of UFOs in the previous category  is  a
result  of  light  reflecting off their  polished  surfaces.  But
witnesses  frequently indicate that the UFO itself was  luminous.
As  distinguished from a wide variety of white or colored  lights
that are reportedly attached to UFOs, light is observed radiating
from  the  entire object or its  immediate  vicinity.  Occasional
references  to  "sparks" immediately suggest that  some  kind  of
electrical phenomenon is involved.
   An  electrical  discharge of sufficient strength  in  the  air
surrounding  a  UFO would produce a soft, white  glow,  known  as
corona.  Such  discharge can sometimes be seen at night  along  a
high-voltage  transmission line but they are not visible  in  the
daylight.   Coronas   could  be  responsible  for   the   typical
distinction between metallic discs that are so commonly  reported
in the daytime and diffuse lights most often seen at night.  They
would  adhere to the UFO surface and gradually dissipate a  short
distance away, thereby appearing as the " halo " often  described
by witnesses. Unfortunately, an ordinary corona is not likely  to
be the correct explanation for the white glow.
   The designer of a high-voltage transmission line would seek to
use the smallest possible cable to minimize the amount of  copper
required  the weight suspended between towers, and the number  of
towers per mile of line. He would select electrical potentials as
high  as 750,000 volts to reduce the power losses  from  internal
heating  of the cable. High voltage, however, would induce  power
losses through corona discharge unless offset by the use of large
cable  sizes.  As electrical lines of force converge  toward  the
center of a cable, electrical field strengths at its surface will
be  smaller  for  cables of  greater  diameter.  A  well-designed
transmission   line  will  therefore  balance  these  and   other
considerations  for  a minimum construction cost  and  utilize  a
cable just large enough to prevent corona under normal  operating
conditions.  Under  occasional  atmospheric  conditions  favoring
electrical breakdown, corona will occur at field strengths on the
order  of  3,000,000 volts per meter.8 The  possibility  of  such
extreme  electrical fields being developed near a  large  object,
such as a UFO having gently curving surfaces, seems quite remote.
  Even  so, some technical implications arise in the  context  of
white glow. As some sort of electrical phenomenon is suspected it
can be postulated that a UFO has:

a)  a  large, negative potential relative to  ground  that  cause
electrons to leak into the atmosphere,
b)  an  alternating  potential that agitates  gas  atoms  in  its
vicinity, or
c) an alternating current within its skin acting as an antenna to
radiate energy into the atmosphere.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!noao!arizona.edu!hep7.physics.arizona.edu!wallin
From: [e-mail] (Tripp Wallin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Keywords: physics, spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 17:31:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <2k4khr#[e-mail]>
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In article <2k4khr#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> >|> >In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
|> >|> >|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> >|> >|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) wri
|>
|> >   I imagine there will of course be a lot of criticism on me too. Oh well
|> >   I probably need to learn to keep my mouth shut.....
|> >
|> >                       -Tripp
|>
|> They say that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be imagined a fool
|> than to open it and prove it. I think that this is the best way to remain
|> a fool.
|>
|> Rich
|>
|> [e-mail]

 Sorry to keep this flame war going but I have a question for Mr. Payner.
 What do you mean by your comment "I think that this is the best way to remain
 a fool."? Do you mean that opening your mouth to voice an idea that might be
 wrong is the best way to be made a fool or do you mean keeping quiet and not
 voicing your ideas is the best way to remain not a fool? Either way I would
 much rather open my mouth to findout if I was right or wrong and make a fool
 of myself in the process than keep quiet on go on being wrong.

                              -Tripp
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From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 16:57:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992May26.032733.15989@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>
>You can see UFOs *anywhere*, if you have enough faith! Just drive to a
>nice, deserted spot on a dark night, and look up. If you see something
>in the sky that you can't identify, then *you* are among that select few. Be
>careful not to try *too* hard to identify the object, or else you
>may succeed.

Just out of curiosity Robert, have you ever tried to *personally* investigate
UFOs?  Like actually going to a place where they are supposed to be and
looking for one?  Seems to me it would be fun for a skeptic like you to see
a bunch of people getting all worked up over a helicopter or something.

I've heard a lot of stories about UFOs in Gulf Breeze and other places,
and I think it would be *really interesting* to go see what is really
going on.  I'll probably be disappointed, but hey, it's just another
excuse for a road trip.

>If this doesn't work, then go into a dark room at night. Light a candle,
>stand in front of a mirror, and begin chanting, "I believe in Whitley
>Strieber....."

I *do* believe in Whitley Strieber.  I've seen a photo of him -- granted
it was a 600th generation xerox of a blurry picture, but there is *NO WAY*
it could have been faked!!!!  He exists!!!  If you disagree then you must
be a CIA agent!!!

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pipex!unipalm!uknet!edcastle!cam
From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 17:09:26 GMT
References: <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]>
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In article <s=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:

[A lot of pompous half-baked "physics" deleted, concerning (among many
other things) that the human body is not a conductor so can't be a TV
antenna.]

>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>may be onto something big!

Experiment time children! Get hold of an AM radio, an FM radio, and a
TV, all of the kind with no internal aerials, simply sockets to plug
in external ones, and battery powered. Find a station on each one
which comes in nice and clear with a simple local antenna (e.g.  yard
of flex on floor), and for which reception is poor or non-existent
without the antenna. Now prepare a very short bit of bare wire
attached to an antenna plug (if co-ax, the interior line).  Plug this
into the aerial socket. Lick your fingers and hold the end of the
wire. Excellent reception! Remove fingers. Poor reception!

There children! We have now shown how the human body can be used as a
radio or TV antenna over a very wide range of frequencies!

[Homework: try dry string, wet string (tap water and salt water),
waterlogged driftwood (fresh and salt), a walking stick, and a freshly
cut green stick. Then take the best of these and experiment with them
as passive adjuncts to a simple yard-of-wire antenna, i.e., not
connected, but moved around nearby.]

How come some people, e.g. Rich Payne, who claim to have some physics
education, have been posting that this is impossible? The answer to
this is called Naive Physics: formal physics makes no sense as a body
of knowledge unless allied to a considerable amount of practical
common-sense knowledge. Many smart kids in high-tech cultures acquire
sufficient practical common-sense to make sense of physics (i.e. be
able to apply it to the real world). Kids from some other cultures,
kids who watched TV all the time instead of playing with old radios,
or those who are just plain stupid, can learn physics -- and pass
exams in it -- without ever acquiring a scrap of usable knowledge. All
they get is a profoundly confused religion which they mistakenly think
of as science. Unfortunately for our children, some of these ignorami
get degrees and become school physics teachers. And for some reason, a
lot of them like to play scientists on the net :-)
--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Keywords: physics, spoons
Message-ID: <c04k-=[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 19:06:08 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tripp Wallin) writes:
>In article <2k4khr#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>|> >|> >In article <683k+7#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>|> >|> >|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>|> >|> >|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) wri
>|>
>|> >   I imagine there will of course be a lot of criticism on me too. Oh well
>|> >   I probably need to learn to keep my mouth shut.....
>|> >
>|> >                       -Tripp
>|>
>|> They say that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be imagined a fool
>|> than to open it and prove it. I think that this is the best way to remain
>|> a fool.
>|>
>|> Rich
>|>
>|> [e-mail]
>
> Sorry to keep this flame war going but I have a question for Mr. Payner.

That's Payne. "payner" is my login, not my name.

> What do you mean by your comment "I think that this is the best way to remain
> a fool."? Do you mean that opening your mouth to voice an idea that might be
> wrong is the best way to be made a fool or do you mean keeping quiet and not
> voicing your ideas is the best way to remain not a fool?

Neither one.

> Either way I would
> much rather open my mouth to findout if I was right or wrong and make a fool
> of myself in the process than keep quiet on go on being wrong.

This is what I had meant. Say nothing, and you will learn nothing. Say
something incerrect, and chances are someone will try to correct it.

Odd how both paraphrases turned my meaning completely around. But upon
re-reading I can see that my original statement was ambiguous.

Oh well, even if my mistake, someone has finally -not- disagreed with
something. So some progress is being made. :^)

>                              -Tripp

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 18:55:35 GMT
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In article <11842@ntdd> [e-mail] (Rolf Meier) writes:
>In article <683k+7#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>
>>>As for your antenna stories, EM waves interfere when they interact with
>>>substances of varying conductivity.  The human body, furniture, walls, and
>>>particularly your antenna are all conductors.  When you change the orientation
>>
>>Generally, a conductor is a material with electrons in the conduction
>>band. The definition is quite clear, and a good test of conductivity
>>can be done with an ohmmeter. Metals are common conductors. None of
>>the items mentioned above are conductors by any physics or electrical
>>definition. I am saying that the above statement is demonstratable false.
>
>Why are you picking on Jeff like that?
>
>Strictly speaking, all the items mentioned will conduct to some extent,
>depending on their moisture content.

I give up, there is no such thing as an insulator, everything is
a conductor. I fell prey to the evil plot concocted by the physics
department at the University of Akron. But I have mended by ways and
no longer utter such phrases.

>The point is that any material, dielectric or conductor, will have an
>effect on TV signals, particularly the UHF channels.  Thus it is not
>surprising to have the strange effects that the orignal poster described
>when moving a metal object near his head.

And although I missed it the first time, it is now clear to me how
this makes "The human body, furniture, walls" and all manner of other
things to be conductors. Obviously, this is my failing.

>Rather than be critical of Jeff's knowledge of electronics, you should
>be sure that you know something of rf propagation.  Maybe you do, but
>there was no need to put him down like that.

I was rather hoping that 10 years in radio repair, and all my college
coursework would give me some clues. That and the fact that I did
not respond to the part of the post dealing with radio propagation
would seemingly made this unimportant. But it seems not to be the
case. And if you look real close, I did not use a single personal
descriptive term, rather saying things like "This statement is...".
I had thought that this was the difference between a personal statement,
and a more objective look at the subject. It seems not.

BTW, since you seem to have a beef with strong personal statements,
why is it that your post contains more than mine? Is it OK for you
to "put me down" for some reason? Why does this seem hypocritical
to me. Another personal failing no doubt.

 ______________________________________________________________________
>Rolf Meier                        Mitel Corporation
>        "Everything You Know Is Wrong"

So I've heard. <sigh>


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 19:19:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>In article <s=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>[A lot of pompous half-baked "physics" deleted, concerning (among many
>other things) that the human body is not a conductor so can't be a TV
>antenna.]

The part about the human body not being a conductor is correct. The
rest you seem to have made up.

>>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>>may be onto something big!

<fun experiment deleted>

>How come some people, e.g. Rich Payne, who claim to have some physics
>education, have been posting that this is impossible? The answer to

No, why are you are falsely claiming that I have made the claim?
There have been far more responses to what I have not posted than
to my actual posts. Reading between the lines has become a high art.

>this is called Naive Physics: formal physics makes no sense as a body
>of knowledge unless allied to a considerable amount of practical
>common-sense knowledge. Many smart kids in high-tech cultures acquire
>sufficient practical common-sense to make sense of physics (i.e. be
>able to apply it to the real world). Kids from some other cultures,
>kids who watched TV all the time instead of playing with old radios,
>or those who are just plain stupid, can learn physics -- and pass
>exams in it -- without ever acquiring a scrap of usable knowledge. All
>they get is a profoundly confused religion which they mistakenly think
>of as science. Unfortunately for our children, some of these ignorami
>get degrees and become school physics teachers. And for some reason, a
>lot of them like to play scientists on the net :-)

And some would rather respond to what they imagine was posted, even
if it bears little resemblance to what actually was. Since I posted not
one word about radio propagation, none of your post was in any way
a response to my words. The 2 topics were simply that 1- The human
body is not a conductor, which is not at all like what everyone seems
to have read. This was something to the effect that the human body
does not conduct. 2- I questioned the ethics of making statements
you know to be incorrect. I did no answer the question, although that
was missed as well.

>--
>Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
>Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
>5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205

Wait, I see the problem. It must be dialect. :^) Somehow all meaning
seems to have been lost. Odd that the words seem the same here.

Cheers  (sue me, I stole someones SIG)


Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gumby!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!aescherm
From: [e-mail] (Amy E Schermerhorn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 22:27:33 GMT
References: <683k+7#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]>
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Gee, people keep saying that the human body is not a conductor.  Ummm...
why, then, shouldn't I go around sticking my fingers in sockets and so
forth?  If I'm an insulator then I'd think I wouldn't have anything to
worry about.

Now if what people are saying is that the human body isn't a GOOD
conductor then no problem.  That's why I can put a 9 v battery on my
tongue and be cool but shouldn't go playing up on light poles.

Anthony Clifton

PS:  Of course, I suppose the def. of an insulator is something that
doesn't conduct well.  Hmmm...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <n_5kjj=[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 21:09:38 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>In article <s=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>[A lot of pompous half-baked "physics" deleted, concerning (among many
>other things) that the human body is not a conductor so can't be a TV
>antenna.]
>
>>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>>may be onto something big!
>
>Experiment time children! Get hold of an AM radio, an FM radio, and a

Opps almost missed this. The line above stood alone. It was more of
an attempted funny than anything else. Nevertheless, your statements
that I made claims about the bodies suitability as an antenna are false.

One more note along these lines. While your body may make a poor
receive antenna, it will make a poor transmit antenna. If there is
much power involved, death could result. While a receive antenna
will work if not tuned, transmit antennas are far less forgiving.

>Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
>Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
>5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205

Rich

[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!mips!sdd.hp.com!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Language of Light Geometry-Pleiadians6
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 22:20:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
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Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in part:
[...]
|> Those couplings that come together in the time of great expansion in
|> this nineteen-nineties will be very joyous.
Lets have some more explicit details on this part!

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Breaking Patterns-Pleiadians7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 22:25:06 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in part:
[...]
|> It was formed by great masters who came into the body.
I'm not sure I want to hear any details about this one.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Breaking Patterns-Pleiadians7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 20:45:05 GMT
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

*sigh*

These qumquats never learn, do they?
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: First Hand Experiences
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 20:58:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Marc Milanini) writes:

|> Maybe a specialist in MHD (if real scientists have not been scared
|> away from this newsgroup) could give us more information.
|> For the record, MHD effects have already been used for prototypes.
|> In Tsukuba, in 1986, a ship moving thanks to MHD was presented.
|> It was only a small model, like the small crafts that JP Petit
|> is making, but MHD is certainly a promising discovery. In the near future,
|> it could allow making aircrafts (missiles ?) moving at supersonic
|> speeds, without producing any shock wave (without any supersonic
|> bang).

    The propulsion system isn't what causes the shock wave though
    it may contribute some as a secondary effect.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!cunyvm!fgbcc
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: .gif files
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 22:49:39 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 13

A few days back someone mentioned getting .gif files on UFO's.  My question
is where, and also where can I get via ftp a viewer.  Thanks, I am new to
this list and find it fascinating.  There was a talk show on yesterday
about abductees.  My cousin who passed away about 10 years ago told me that
one night he and his son, saw a UFO.  I always thought the world of him, and
if he said that,  it is so.  I wish I could witness this for myself!  I did
have a strange experience some years ago, I guess some in my field would say
I had a dream, I don't believe so, but since it never happened before or since,
I will have to read the experiences of others.  I am a psychologist, and should
be finished with my dissertation by years end.  I teach and talk about this
topic when we talk about unexplained phenomena.  Well that is about it!

Ciao
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: alien hypnosos (was: Oh, please save us)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 21:25:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
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Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>,
> [e-mail] (Robert J. Hall) writes...
>
> [stuff deleted...]
>
>
> To begin with, what makes people think that the fact that some people claim
> to have recovered memories of abduction experiences using "crude hypnosis"
> has _any_ bearing on how the memories were tampered with in the first place?
Do the abductees report just _what_
> the aliens have done to them to mess up their memories?
>
(stuff deleted)
>
> And if those with access to more data than I reply that abductees _do_
> in fact report that the aliens use hypnosis, then I retract all of the above
> objections.
>
> Gene

Please take a look at the new book "Secret Lives" by David Jacobs. The
abductees he dealt with report over and over an act where the aliens with
big eyes (Greys I assume) stare fixedly into the humans' eyes. Jacobs
dubs it *staring* appropriately enough. The effect seems to be that it
affects human cognitive ability -- the person may go into a state
similar to trance, may feel that his/her thoughts or emotions are being
scanned, or may feel that thoughts or emotion are being implanted.

Also, according to abductees I have talked to, the *staring* can have
a paralyzing effect, so that the person may be able to walk, to perceive
visually, but higher brain function seems to be suspended. That is one
reason, some of them say, that they later assumed the events were
dreams.

It isn't clear -- either from the literature, from abductee reports, or
from sketches drawn (such as those shown by Linda Moulton Howe in lecture)
whether the huge black eyes of the Greys are the actual *eyeball* or a
covering; or, indeed, whether the Greys are biological or mechanical.
The observed hypnotizing-effect of their *staring* is provocative,
either way. Obviously the *staring* is not identical to hypnosis as we
know it; but it does have the similar effect of creating an alterded
state.  The most important thing about events experienced in that state
is that they are *state specific*  -- so that it is more likely they
could be recalled in a same or similar state (such as hypnotic trance)
than in a dissimilar state (i.e. ordinary waking consciousness).

Regards, Lou
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (alan smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 01:25:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Distribution: world,local
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X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry Kit
on) writes:
>[e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>>may be onto something big!
>
>    Just ask your average cockroach.  I don't believe his (or her)
>antennae were constructed by any process involving a true conductor, or
>indeed a true cellist, a true bassoonist or a true trumpeter.  And on
>human scales, these antennae should not be considered "big"!  (Exactly h
w
>you get "onto" them is your own business.)  Such distortion of the
>Truth(pat pend.) seems extremely unethical to say the least.
>
I didn't know cockaroaches picked up FM.

>  Try to be more specific next time.
>        Barry.

   Wouldn't that be somethin' though?  "What station you gettin?"
"K-Roach."  "%*#@! My roach needs new batteries!"  Okay, I'll shut up now.

Big Al   "Don't speak unless you have something to say."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!jdporter
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Twelth Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 17:52:21 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 4

Incidentally, hadn't you thought that my mail implied that I had read the book,
given that I could quote various details from its arguments?

Will respond in more detail soonish.
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From: [e-mail] (Mark D. Kline)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: newcomer requests FAQ
Summary: where's the best "proof"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 01:38:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Lines: 34


It seems to me that UFO abductions should be eminently provable
if 2% of the population claims to be abducted.  Since no public
and convincing evidence seems to be available, I gotta feel safe
in my conviction that the phenom is some kind of mass hysteria.

That 2% of the population believes something doesn't make it so.
Ninety plus percent of the usa population say they believe in God;
more than 2% of the us population ascribes to creationism; it may
be that 2% of the population is antisemitic, ascribes to other
racial bigotry, or has outright delusional ideas.  Schizophrenia
has a world wide incidence of 1% (this is not to say that UFO
abductees have schizophrenia, only that serious mental illness
occurs with high prevalence).

For those of us new to this group, what are the best sources of information?
What books or reports out there might convince a skeptic like me?
_PLEASE_ don't refer me to anything on TV! :)











--
=================================================================
mark kline                                [e-mail]
suny health science center, syracuse      voice: [phone]
================= courtesy of syracuse university ================
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From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Gilbert)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO siting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 01:15:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Jeremy Gilbert)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.
Lines: 130


        Don't get your hopes up, this isn't anything earth-shattering.  I
didn't get abducted.  No star maps were dispensed.  The following is, however,
completely factual to my knowledge.  No artistic license has been employed, nor
any other form of exaggeration, purposeful omission, or general out-and-out
lying.  Disclaimers aside, on with the article:

    1987, Thompson, Connecticut.

    It was a clear, dark night and I had finished driving some friends
home and was on my way home.

    If you have ever driven through parts of the North-East or any other
heavily wooded area at night then you may have noticed that the space between
the trees above the road affords a rather limited view of the sky in most
places.  I noticed something up there.  At first I figured it was only an
airplane or helicopter, but there were three things about it that caused me to
pay attention to it.

    1) It had two bright white lights oriented such that (if it were an
airplane) the lights would be on each wing.

    2) It was moving along the road in such a way that it was always ahead
of me, and always in view.

    3) It was not moving quickly relative to my position as I would expect
a fixed wing aircraft to do.

    Now, as I was driving I tried to rationalize this.  All the items are
explainable.  I am not an expert on aircraft anti-collision lighting, however
I would be somewhat surprised to learn of white anti-collision lights mounted
on either side of an aircraft and pointed AFT as they would have to be if the
aircraft were moving in the same direction as me and staying ahead of me.
I am a flight student and as of yet I have neither read about nor seen any
such thing.  But, as I have said, I am not an expert on aircraft or aircraft
lighting systems.

    The UFO (and I use that term strictly according to definition) may
have been on a course that placed it directly ahead of me along the road
that I was driving only by coincidence.  So there is nothing at all necessarily
mysterious about item (2).

    Item (3) could be explained if the UFO were an helicopter or
hovercraft (a word that I will use to refer to a Harrier jet or other such
aircraft).  A hovercraft would be inexplicable in its own right since
Thompson is not near any military installation.  And the only other type
of aircraft that I know of that is capable of the maneuvers that I witnessed
is a helicopter.  I don't know much about helicopters and I knew even less in
1987 so that was my best bet.

    The UFO set me to wondering.  So, I started blinking my headlights
in the sequence of prime numbers.  (I'm not sure why I do this when I see
potentially odd things in the sky.  Presumably it is to prove that I am an
intelligent being.  I have often wondered how many perfectly normal terrestrial
pilots would beg to differ on that point :-)  Yes, I really did this.

    Nothing particularly interesting happened immediately.  The UFO didn't
blink back like I had hoped it would.  I just kept driving and watching and
occasionally looking at the road to make sure I didn't drive off the road or
into anything important.  Then it occurred to me that I had gone around several
curves and this object was still with me.  This is when I got really curious.
Spine started tingling and everything.

    I knew this could still be coincidence, or explainable by other
less plausible arguments (such as: perhaps it was a helicopter with a pilot
with a sense of humor).

    So I decided to really get to the bottom of this.  I drove on until
I got to a spot with fewer trees and had a pretty good view of the sky and
then I pulled over.

    This is when the fun starts.

    The moment I pulled over the UFO no longer continued its course along
the road I was on.  It veered off to the West (to the right of the road I was
on traveling South), which was perfect because that placed it in the part
of the sky that I had the best view of.  It then stopped.  The UFO appeared
motionless.  It was hovering.

    I turned off my car's engine.  Got out of the car and watched it for
over a minute while it simply hovered.  The two white lights seemed to be
pointed in my direction.

    Now the most remarkable thing, the only inexplicable thing, about what
I was observing was that I HEARD nothing.  I could not hear any kind of engine
noise whatsoever.  It was summer time and there was the sound of tree toads and
insects all around me, but any aircraft in that proximity, especially a
helicopter or hovercraft would certainly have been audible, without any doubt.
An air balloon would make sense here, but would not be capable of the maneuvers
that the UFO executed.

    After about a minute or so the two white lights suddenly turned off.
Then, against the faint back-lighting of the sky, a could just barely see
the thing moving.  It was too dark for me to make out the shape of the thing.
I could only tell that it was moving towards me.  I watched it pass directly
over me.  As it crossed the road I could just barely hear something.  It
didn't sound like an airplane or helicopter.  It didn't sound like your
traditional UFO (like somebody went nuts with a Moog synthesizer).  It was
very quiet and sounded like the wind.

    It went behind some trees.  End of UFO experience.

    Now.  A few notes about me.  I don't drink (at all) or do drugs, or
partake in any other kind of mind-altering activity that might lead to "seeing
things".  I have never passed out or have had any kind of delusions that I
know of.  I was not on any kind of medication.  My memories of that evening
seem consistent (no hours mysteriously disappeared, my friends agree to the
time that I remember driving them home, etc.)  In short, I have considered the
possibilities and honestly cannot think of any way that this could have been
imagined, fantasized, or dreamt.

    I am open-minded, but critical.  I did get excited about what I
saw, but I also attempted to rationalize it and was unsuccessful, and therefore
I have concluded that what I saw was strange and not a part of my previous
experience, a UFO.

    I believe in E.T.'s insofar that I accept the probability that alien
life exists.  I would like to know for sure that the UFO was other-worldly,
but the jury is still out on that one.  For now, though, I fancy that it was.

    Questions, critisizms, and possible explanations are welcomed (post
if you like, but please E-mail to me also as I have a hard time keeping
current with newsgroups).

   +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
   | Jeremy Gilbert (aka. Burl)   | "They said Bill Clinton subscribed to  |
   | Bull HN Information Systems  |  Playboy when he was in college.  He   |
   | Billerica, Mass. 01821       |  said that it was true, but he never   |
   | [e-mail]  |  looked at the pictures."       -Burl  |
   +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!mercury!nacjack!Peter.Caffell
From: [e-mail] (Peter Caffell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO siting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 May 92 07:47:00 GMT
Organization: Infoboard BBS - Auckland - [phone] -
Lines: 45
In-Reply-To: [e-mail] (Eric Bazan)

Hi Eric,


|EB>evening I was walking with a friend. The western horizon had started to |
|EB>clear, and Venus became visible, very bright, and very close to the hori|
|EB>Relative to the clouds on the horizon, *Venus* appeared to be moving. At|
|EB>this point, my friend grabbed my are and shouted someting to the affect |
|EB>"Look - a UFO!". No. Sorry. With the light pollution getting so         |
|EB>bad in most cities, most city dwellers aren't accustomed to seeing a tru|
|EB>dark sky. I've taken some of my friends who aren't interested in Astrono|
|EB>on some observing sessions in the country, and on several occasions     |
|EB>they've mistaken satelites, and even slow moving meteors for UFOs.      |

When I manned the Observatory in Auckland NZ in the late 1960's
I frequently received calls from the public stating that they'd
seen a UFO.  After a quick look out the window to the west i'd
assure them that they were looking at Venus.

|EB> But on to my own siting. I used to own a pair of 11x80 binoculars      |
|EB>(huge binocs meant for dark sky observing). About two years ago, in the |

I had a similar experience one night while observing Saturn
back in 1965.  I took my eye away from the telescope for in
second and looked up at the sky and there it was!  This pale
orange light that looked like a satelite.  Slow moving, but I
thought that I detected a slight wobble in it's path between
the stars. Then it suddenly turned and retraced it's path back
across the sky.

WOW !!!  A real UFO at last!  Well, my heart racing with
excitement, I flew inside the house and grabbed my binoculars
and went back to see what it was.  It was a real live DUCK.

I live in a city with it's consequent light pollution, and when
I looked through the binoculars at this *UFO* it turned out to
be a lost duck at about 1000 ft. up reflecting the street
lights.

If I hadn't had access to the binoculars I would have believed
to this day that I'd seem a real alien UFO.

Regards
Peter
___
X MegaMail 2.1b #0:
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 19:39:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Lines: 39
X-Posted-From: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
> [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
>
>>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>> If there are SOOO many alien civilizations out there, WHY OH WHY WON'T
>>> THEY LAND IN A MAJOR CITY DURING DAYLIGHT SO THE REST OF US POOR MORTALS
>>> CAN MEET THEM?!
>>>
>
>>Here's a really dumb, obvious question I've always
>>wanted to ask, after years of searching the skies unsucessfully
>>for ufo's:
>>    OK. People see ufo's all the time, and take pictures of them, etc.
>>Ufo's are seen as lights moving around un the sky.
I wish.  I have spent thousands of hours looking at the night sky in the
country and I have  never seen a UFO.

> Also, if they don't wish humans to remember abductions (just
> playing along for a sec.) then _why_ don't they use a general
> anesthetic of some sort? I don't think there's a hypnotic regression
> technique in the world that would recover memories from _that_...
I guess that you have never had an electromyogram test.  I have.  The
neurologist sticks fat, sharp needles in various parts of the body to
record nerve conductance rates and amplitudes.  VERY uncomfortable.
They cannot use anaesthetics becausse that prevents nerve conductance.
The pain is just something that has to be endured.  That's a fact.

Now for speculation:  A sufficiently advanced medical operation could
(with CAT scan, NMR, etc.) observe the position of a probe with great
precision by mapping the sensory inputs as they arrive in the brain;
as a bonus, characteristics of the intervening nerves can also be
recorded.  However, the lpatient will be very unhappy with the procedure.
If you were the doctor, you would prefer if the patient "forgot" the
severe pain that would result.

Just speculation, mind you, but a rationale.
>
> Phil Fraering [e-mail] where the x is a number from 1-5.
        Cordially, Jim Hawtree <[e-mail]>
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Summary: cooking with greys
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 03:45:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:
> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
> ...
> >   Anyway I have
> > this question if you know the greys.
> > Why does it take three hours of boiling in water to get that
> > tough leather skin off? I mean, is there a faster method?
>
> Whatfor you want to remove the skin? That's where all the vitamins
> and minerals are!

Yeah, it's like chewing Jerky meat, and kinda bitter like orange
rinds. I would rather eat 1-a-days(TM) for vitamin intake.

>
> (Granted, it _can_ be a bit tough at times, in which case I would
> recommend marinating in a mixture of olive oil, salt, garlic, and
> cayanne pepper (to taste) for a few hours prior to cooking. Bon Apetite!)

Then you leave the skin on and just marinate it? I would
like to try this in the slow-cooker. Damn, looking out my
window if i didn't nab another one. Boy, they're dumber than
the rabbits!
I have only been nabbing the 2 footers, must be a nest around
here. Even the 2 footers(2 feet tall that is)have a tough hide.
Thanks for the tips.

P.S. Ever try substituting greys for chicken in soup? I'm thinking
they may have the cold remedy same as chicken. Greys are cheaper too.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!rutgers!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Doug.Morrow
From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Article: Earth Moves In An Extra-terrestrial
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 17:52:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
Lines: 20

Jeff,

Your concern for the obvious similarities between humans and the
"grays" is misplaced. Consider the basic similarities in shape and
size of sharks and dolphins. Because both evolved in similar
environments, both share similar features...not exactly the same, to
be sure, but close.

Anyway, it is not unreasonable to assume that intelligent, TECHNICAL
creatures would have many of the same sorts of features.  A legless
catapillar (I think thats what you suggested) would have a very
difficult time making a fire or holding a hammer.  Not that the
possibility of parallel evolutionary shapes proves anything, but it
should not be used to argue for the unreality of the "grays".

Doug
--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Morrow)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Seti Theory
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 May 92 18:05:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
Lines: 13

There was an article in (I think) Astronomy Mag a few years back
discussing nearby stars that had all the "right stuff" for having
possibly earth type planets. Their estimates (based on things like
stability, rate of rotation, luminousity, age etc,) indicated that
within a 50 light year radius, there were 47(?) that met all the
criteria and wwere "likely" to have earth like planets.

I'll track down the specific article and repost.

--
Doug Morrow - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Denver UFO conference, how was it ?
Summary: ufo
Keywords: ufo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 03:24:17 GMT
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 22

Hi,
I just wanted to know, how the Denver UFO conference went ?

Did they show the video tape of the Gulf Breeze sighting ?
(Where the UFO communicated with a crowd blinking flash-light at it, as in
an earlier posting was claimed ?)

Can somebody give a first hand report to this newgroup ??

Thanks a lot in advance.

Best regards Stefan Hartmann.
email to: [e-mail]


--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Edward Heinemann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 06:00:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10319 alt.alien.visitors:6127 sci.skeptic:24716

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes:>
>
>At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
>with what these Pledians have to say, so either:
>
>a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
>    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
>    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
>    ever before in history.
>
>b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
>    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
>    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).
>
>I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
>a shred of veracity.


Or: (c) The Bible AND the Pleiadian text are BOTH fiction.

Far more likely in my book...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!ncar!hsdndev!yale!actcnews!aoa!carl
From: [e-mail] (Carl Witthoft)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 16:36:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Adaptive Optics Associates
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6128 sci.physics:21712 sci.skeptic:24717

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>shedding a garment or too in the process).  There's NOTHING magical
>about 2.5 GHz, except that it was available for use when microwave
>ovens appeared on the market.

The microwave oven frequency is chosen at or near a water molecule
absorption peak.  The frequency may be mucked with slightly to
increase or decrease the skin depth.


--
Bobby Newmark, aka  Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates
aoa![e-mail]  [e-mail]
54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201
**Just say NO to HMOs**
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: .gif files
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 08:48:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 50

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>A few days back someone mentioned getting .gif files on UFO's.  My question
>is where, and also where can I get via ftp a viewer.  Thanks, I am new to
>this list and find it fascinating.  There was a talk show on yesterday
>about abductees.  My cousin who passed away about 10 years ago told me that
>one night he and his son, saw a UFO.  I always thought the world of him, and
>if he said that,  it is so.  I wish I could witness this for myself!  I did
>have a strange experience some years ago, I guess some in my field would say
>I had a dream, I don't believe so, but since it never happened before or since,
>I will have to read the experiences of others.  I am a psychologist, and should
>be finished with my dissertation by years end.  I teach and talk about this
>topic when we talk about unexplained phenomena.  Well that is about it!

>Ciao

Hi,
here is help-text, how to get the pics:


Hi,
here comes again that info how to access the UFO-pics at the finnish
FTP site:

This You have to type at Your Keyboard:

ftp 130.231.240.17   (Return)
ftp                  (login as user ftp)
ftp                  (Password ftp)
cd pub/ufo_and_space_pics      (change into the right directory)
ls -l                (list all files)
prompt               (set interactive mode off)
binary               (set binary transfer mode)
mget *.gif           (get all GIF-pics)
mget *.jpg           (get all JPEG pics)
quit                 (logout)

This is it to grab all the pics.

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Workshop for
Decentral Energy Research and UFO research
email to:  [e-mail]

--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!morrow.stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!ungar
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Ungar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 12:28:21 GMT
References: <683k+7#[e-mail]> <11842@ntdd> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <11842@ntdd> [e-mail] (Rolf Meier) writes:
>>In article <683k+7#[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
.... etc. etc. etc. .....
>
>I was rather hoping that 10 years in radio repair, and all my college
>coursework would give me some clues. That and the fact that I did

Ah well, we all have such high hopes from time to time :). BTW, is
"Radio Repair" anywhere near the Late Night Home Office?

>Rich
>
>[e-mail]

Jeff Ungar                                  [e-mail]
(a physicist AND an electrical engineer)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where should I go to see UFOs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 19:05:24 GMT
References: <1992May26.032733.15989@anasaz> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>>
>>You can see UFOs *anywhere*, if you have enough faith! Just drive to a
>>nice, deserted spot on a dark night, and look up. If you see something
>>in the sky that you can't identify, then *you* are among that select few. Be
>>careful not to try *too* hard to identify the object, or else you
>>may succeed.
>
>Just out of curiosity Robert, have you ever tried to *personally* investigate
>UFOs?  Like actually going to a place where they are supposed to be and
>looking for one?  Seems to me it would be fun for a skeptic like you to see
>a bunch of people getting all worked up over a helicopter or something.
>

I've talked to *plenty* of people who claim to be UFO witnesses. But
somehow I've never had the privilege of being with them at the time
of their extraterrestrial visitations. Yes, it *would* be humorous to
see people going agog over a helicopter or whatever.

>>If this doesn't work, then go into a dark room at night. Light a candle,
>>stand in front of a mirror, and begin chanting, "I believe in Whitley
>>Strieber....."
>
>I *do* believe in Whitley Strieber.  I've seen a photo of him -- granted
>it was a 600th generation xerox of a blurry picture, but there is *NO WAY*
>it could have been faked!!!!  He exists!!!  If you disagree then you must
>be a CIA agent!!!
>
 Well, I *have to* believe in Whitley Strieber, since we were on a TV
 show together (where he behaved like a spoiled child, as I described
 on my recent post). I guess what you gotta chant is, "I believe
 Strieber's *Communion* is Really True!" But that doesn't sound enough
 like a parody of "I Believe in Mary Worth...."

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!agate!linus!philabs!ttidca!soldev!jackson
From: [e-mail] (Dick Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 14:53:04 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (alan smith) writes:
>I didn't know cockaroaches picked up FM.

There are recurring stories about people who can pick up AM without a
radio. Of course I suppose that many of those who so claim are loonies
but I have heard the suggestion that in some cases the interface between
a filling and a tooth can become a crude diode. But I forget how it was
proposed that the demodulated signal got transduced into audio (sound
was supposedly conducted via the jaw bone into the inner ear). Anyone
have any ideas?

Dick Jackson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pipex!ibmpcug!ibmpcug!demon!news
From: [e-mail] (David Ford)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 10:40:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: David Ford <[e-mail]>
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Hypnotism is by no means only acted apon humans. You can easily hypnotise
many animals, the classic example being rabbits staring at the lights of an
oncoming vehicle despite the danger.
Hypnotism could be used to prepair the subject for something along the lines
of nanorobotics as it can totally relax the boby, therefor reducing the amount
of 'noise' generated by the various nerves within the body.

|David Ford             |To err is human but to really cock it up takes|
|[e-mail] |a computer operator.                          |
|Another Englishman :-) |Practice safe sex, as often as possible :-)   |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!acorn!ixi!clive
From: [e-mail] (Clive Feather)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 11:00:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>> But if you -can- make a working antenna without a true conductor, you
>> may be onto something big!
> Experiment time children! Get hold of an AM radio, an FM radio, and a
> TV, all of the kind with no internal aerials, simply sockets to plug
> in external ones, and battery powered. Find a station on each one
> which comes in nice and clear with a simple local antenna (e.g.  yard
> of flex on floor), and for which reception is poor or non-existent
> without the antenna. Now prepare a very short bit of bare wire
> attached to an antenna plug (if co-ax, the interior line).  Plug this
> into the aerial socket. Lick your fingers and hold the end of the
> wire. Excellent reception! Remove fingers. Poor reception!
> [Homework: try dry string, wet string (tap water and salt water),
> waterlogged driftwood (fresh and salt), a walking stick, and a freshly
> cut green stick. Then take the best of these and experiment with them
> as passive adjuncts to a simple yard-of-wire antenna, i.e., not
> connected, but moved around nearby.]

A couple of months ago, I discovered by chance that the co-ax lead from
the television to the wall aerial socket (connected by another co-ax
lead to a 4-element Yagi array in the loft) was unplugged at the wall
end, with the plug lying on the floor at least 0.5m from the socket (and
not pointing at it). I have no idea how long it had been like that.
Nevertheless, picture quality was unimpaired, and teletext [*] was being
decoded correctly.

*Nothing* about UHF propogation suprises me.

[*] For users of low-quality television systems (like NTSC), teletext is
a text-based information system multiplexed on to broadcast television,
by transmitting 40 bytes in each 8 scanlines at the top of the screen
(not normally visible). That means that an approximately 1 mbps signal
is not being degraded.
--
Clive D.W. Feather     | IXI Limited         | If you lie to the compiler,
[e-mail]          | 62-74 Burleigh St.  | it will get its revenge.
Phone: [phone] | Cambridge   CB1 1OJ |   - Henry Spencer
Fax:   [phone] | United Kingdom      |
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From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Denver UFO conference, how was it ?
Keywords: ufo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 07:11:34 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
>Hi,
>I just wanted to know, how the Denver UFO conference went ?
>[stuff deleted]
>Can somebody give a first hand report to this newgroup ??
>

I attended a workshop on crop circles, which was conducted by Michael
Chorost. There really wasn't anything new, slides of some of the more
interesting patterns and discussion of plans for the future.

He and others are attempting to put the study of crop "circles" on a firmer
scientific footing.  People are starting to systematically record the
attributes and dimensions of the patterns and this will continue.

For instance, two separate complex patterns were found to be almost identical
once they were measured and recorded.
Another thing noticed is that whereas the patterns always used to be
lined up with the tram lines this isn't always the case anymore.
One slide showed a pattern which was at an angle to the tram line
and which was found to be lined up with magnetic north
(He pointed out that this doesn't prove anything as a hoaxer could do this).

One thing I found interesting was his discussion of how the clean edges
are obtained in a rectangular shape:
-------------------
| A   --->      B | If we assume the plants are pushed over in the
|                 | direction of the arrow it's not difficult to
------------------
imagine how the vertical edge near A could be obtained, but what I
always wondered about (and so did he) was what happened at edge B.
Is the direction reversed, or what? Well, what happens is that the
plants are somehow pushed down between the standing plants which
make up edge B.

Apparently, they have been able to put together a good research group
which will attempt to study anomalous characteristics of the plants and
soil. There was evidence of higher levels of radioactivity in soil
samples taken from inside circles, but  he admits the data is
to date too insubstantial to draw any conclusions.
If there is anything to be found, this may be the year they find it.

He was careful to admit the possibility that it is all
the work of a good landscape artist(s) and in
the hope of understanding this mystery a little better, will try to
get some good hard data this summer.  I think they will have some very expensive
equipment at their disposal to do microscopic analysis, checks for
radioactivity, etc. They believe that the soil samples contain
radioactive species which have an extremely short half-life
and which can thus be assumed to not be naturally occuring (based on the small
amount of data available from last summer).

We'll just have to wait and see what happens this summer.

I have his stateside mail address and will attempt to contact him
later this summer to find out what's happening over there.

>Thanks a lot in advance.
 You're welcome.
>Best regards Stefan Hartmann.
>email to: [e-mail]
>
Dave.
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From: [e-mail] (Andre)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 06:22:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
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Hello jdporter!

Thursday May 21 1992, jdporter writes to All:

 j> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
 j> In article <[e-mail]>,
 j> [e-mail] writes:

 >> If there are SOOO many alien civilizations out there, WHY OH WHY WON'T
 >> THEY LAND IN A MAJOR CITY DURING DAYLIGHT SO THE REST OF US POOR MORTALS
 >> CAN MEET THEM?!

Do you like to have your holydays in Yugoslavia today? I think no...
What do you think, what the gouvernments and the CIA and the army are doing with the aliens, if they land in a city?

cheers
   Andre

--
Andre - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 05:26:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <27 May 92 15:34> Jeff Nelson wrote:

 JN> of these conductors, waves of different frequency interfere in various
 JN> ways.  It is a fairly common effect that moving a TV, furniture, or even  JN> having someone stand near the TV (due to the electrolytic solution we
 JN> call blood) can effect reception.

Hi Jeff.  This is all true, but dated.

What do you think aboout the discovery of tens of thousands of tiny, ferrous nodules that seem to occur naturally in brain tissue?  The paper regarding them was published about 2 weeks ago, and they were written up in the New York Times Science Section.  What implications would these nodules have for EM effects in humans?

 JN> I'd encourage anyone interested to try to read the work of actual
 JN> physicists who were interested in this subject, instead of just being
 JN> amazed by a few newspaper articles or an episode of "That's Incredible".

This is good advice, and I'll be interested to see what tests and experiments are devised to influence these nodules.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Science and UFOlogy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 21:58:00 GMT
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Below  is  an  excerpt taken from  James  M.  McCampbell's  book,
UFOLOGY,  in ParaNet's continuing series of Science and  UFOlogy.
This segment deals with the reliability of reports.

UFOLOGY (c) 1976 by James M. McCampbell
Excerpt taken from pages 2 - 4

Reliability of Reports

By James M. McCampbell

The  theoretical question of reliability became  quite  important
during  the years when intercontinental ballistic  missiles  were
being developed. These weapons, implanted in underground silos in
the western states, must remain on stand-by for long periods  but
they  must  always  be  operable.  They  are  extremely   complex
mechanisms; consequently, many things can go wrong with them. The
strategic  posture  of  the  United  States  is  defined  by  the
existence  of these missiles plus the assurance that  they  would
work  if called upon. Every aspect of these weapons,  from  their
control systems to their maintenance schedules, had to be planned
to  meet  the stringent demands of reliability.  This  obligation
fostered  a  new and powerful tool that is known  as  Reliability
Theory.  1 This theory establishes the relationship  between  the
performance   of  a  complex  system  and  its   subsystems   and
components.  If the reliability of the individual  components  is
known  the theory may be employed to compute the  reliability  of
the  complete system. Conversely, if the required reliability  of
the  overall  system  is specified, the theory  can  be  used  to
establish  the requisite reliability of all the constituents.  In
the  latter case, each element that goes into the system must  be
tested  extensively  to  prove  that  it  meets  the   prescribed
standards. The mathematical statement of reliability is a  single
number  from  0  to 1.0, similar to  the  scale  of  probability.
Absolute   reliability,  represented  by  1.0  is   theoretically
unattainable.
  This  theory has been successfully applied to UFO  reports.  As
with  any complex system, the problem was first broken down  into
its  finest  elements. Such factors as the number  of  witnesses,
their  training in aerial observation, and the  circumstances  of
the sighting were isolated. Details of the original documentation
were accounted for with emphasis upon interviews of the witnesses
and the professional qualifications of the interviewers. Finally,
the quality of secondary reports than had been prepared from  the
original documents was assessed. Reliability Theory was then used
to derive an equation expressing the reliability of a report. One
hundred sixty (160) sightings from Japan, France, Venezuela,  and
the U.S.A. were selected and analyzed.2
 In  1961,  a large, spherical object was observed  by  a  famous
television  commentator and hundreds of other people. It  hovered
over  the  city  of  Indianapolis,  Indiana,  at  two   different
altitudes  before  moving  away  rapidly to  the  south.  It  was
apparently metallic with a steady green light an top and flashing
red  lights  on the bottom. Just above its equator was a  row  of
windows. The Reliability Index for this sighting turned out to be
in excess of 0.999! In other words, one can be well assured  that
this  incident  took  place according to  the  reports,  although
absolute  certainty is ruled out. Even the structural details  of
UFOs,  such  as  the  windows in this  instance,  must  be  taken
seriously when they are included in highly reliable reports.
  Other interesting sightings whose Reliability Indices were also
found to be greater than 0.999 are summarized below:

a. Bright light on shadowy object. Confirmed by radar.  Scrambled
jet  fighter had radar lock-on. UFO broke into three pieces  that
all flew away.

b.  Rigid  submarine-shaped cloud with  metallic  disc  spiraling
around  it. Disc flew over a four mile area then returned to  the
"submarine."

c.  Bright, cigar-shaped object with windows. Hovered  then  left
rapidly.  Emitted strong strands or fibers that  evaporated  upon
touch  and  stained  hands. d.  Ovoid,  aluminum-colored  object.
Landed  on  a  hill. Grass flattened in rough circle  60  ft.  in
diameter. Moved as a white cloud with fuzzy edges.

e.  Two convex, disc-shaped objects near a large  balloon.  Speed
changes and extremely fast departure. Size estimated between  200
and 300 ft.

f. Night lights in rigid pattern. Approached, hovered, then  flew
away.  Inferred size about 150 ft. No structure  discernible  but
impression  of  metallic  surface. Car could not  catch  it  upon
departure.

g.  Bright  glowing object proceeding over  hills  in  undulatory
path.

  These examples are especially important because they are  quite
typical  UFO  reports.  It would be difficult  to  dismiss  these
events or to interpret them in any way other than at face  value.
   One  word of caution: A report is not proven to be  fraudulent
even  though  it may warrant a low Reliability  Index.  A  single
witness  who  is neither technically trained  nor  professionally
involved in aerial observations would rank low on the reliability
scale.  Yet  a  sharp-eyed  farmer  from  Pennsylvania  would  be
perfectly  capable  of reporting a sighting  with  sincerity  and
accuracy.  Consequently,  all reports should be  studied  without
prejudice, unless of course, a hoax or misinterpretation has been
proven  in  a  particular instance. Only on this  basis  can  the
maximum  amount  of  information  be brought  to  bear  upon  the
perplexing problem of UFOs.

1.   See  article, "Reliability of Equipment  and  Bibliography",
McGraw-Hill  Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, Vol  11,  p.
471, 1971.

2.   Olsen, Thomas M., Editor, The Reference For Outstanding  UFO
Sighting   Reports,  UFO  Information  Retrieval  Center,   Inc.,
Riderwook, Maryland, November, 1966.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 05:32:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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In a message to All <27 May 92 15:34> James Davis Nicoll wrote:

 >>        (Much phone stuff deleted.)
 >>
 >>        Whatever you do, do NOT, under ANY circumstances, watch the movie
 >>"The President's Analyst" with James Coburn.
 >>
 >>        Trust me.

 JDN>        Why? Does Mr Coburn tend to
 JDN> natter on if you both watch a film together
 JDN> or what? Is it ok if you watch TPA with
 JDN> Bruce Willis, Del Close or Takakura
 JDN> Ken?

Hi James!  Nice to find another Ken Takakura fan!

I think Rev. Siano's point is that, in The President's Analyst, the Sinister Forces Plotting the Global Takeover turn out to be ...

The Phone Company.

:-)

Best,
  Clark


--
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: What happened to the white spot in W.Strieber's brain?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 05:38:00 GMT
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In a message to All <27 May 92 15:35> The Cookster! wrote:

 TC>        Ever wonder why Communion came
 TC> out before Intruders? No coincidence
 TC>        kids.

I heard the same thing.  I was an editor at Doubleday in the early '80s, and there were similar tales from participants who paid to join Whitley's "1st-time novel-writers" group.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Nate Hawthorn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 09:46:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leo Wa
> (References on Reich's Orgone theory)
> >    I remember a number of years back, that my brother ordered a copy of
> >the patent on a machine, which I vaguely rembember being called
> >something like Hieronomous, but it's hard to remember 30 years back.
> >We also made a "blanket" which consisted of alternate layers of organic
> >and inorganic material for a total of about seven layers (I forget the
> >exact composition, but think it was steel wool and sheep wool).  Anyway
> >the energy reflection back was surprising to put it mildly.  Knowing my
> >brother, he still has the material (and everything else he accumulated
> >over the past 40 years)!
>
> I really wish someone would get off their duffer and do some real investigati
> on the topic of electromagnetic fields surrounding the body, so the whole
> subject can be demystified.
>
> Here's an interesting experience.  I was sitting on the floor a short way
> from the TV, playing with a broken piece of metal antenna while watching
> channel 10.  I kept on getting poor reception and could figure out for the
> life of me why ... until I move the metal away from my head.
>
> When I moved it away, the reception became clear, when I moved it back, the
> reception went haywire the very instant the antenna got to within 1/2" of my
> skull.  It was not only repeatible, but it was in fact rather easy to
> control after some practice.
>
> It only happened for this channel, no others.  It only happened when I was
> positioned in a certain general area of the room, and it only happened when
> the antenna was positioned within 1/2" of my head ... not any other body part
> just the head.


This is why people should learn more about RF, what you have done
can be done very easy. You were a big REFLECTOR and when you stand
in just the right WAVELENGTH away from the TV, you have made a ANTENNA!

YOu are probably correct in that the human body emits RF or energy
as a matter of fact infrared is a RF frequency that we can see if we
have the right equipment! (heat)

Nate...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!orthogo!orthogo.uucp!ts
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Sabock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 13:46:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> Va negvpyr <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Znex Jvyyvnz Ubcxvaf) jevgrf:
|>
|> |> V ernyyl jvfu fbzrbar jbhyq trg bss gurve qhssre naq qb fbzr erny vairfgvtngvat
|> |> ba gur gbcvp bs ryrpgebzntargvp svryqf fheebhaqvat gur obql, fb gur jubyr
|> |> fhowrpg pna or qrzlfgvsvrq.
|> |>
|> |> Urer'f na vagrerfgvat rkcrevrapr.  V jnf fvggvat ba gur sybbe n fubeg jnl
|> |> sebz gur GI, cynlvat jvgu n oebxra cvrpr bs zrgny nagraan juvyr jngpuvat
|> |> punaary 10.  V xrcg ba trggvat cbbe erprcgvba naq pbhyq svther bhg sbe gur
|> |> yvsr bs zr jul ... hagvy V zbir gur zrgny njnl sebz zl urnq.
|> |>
|> |> Jura V zbirq vg njnl, gur erprcgvba orpnzr pyrne, jura V zbirq vg onpx, gur
|> |> erprcgvba jrag unljver gur irel vafgnag gur nagraan tbg gb jvguva 1/2" bs zl
|> |> fxhyy.  Vg jnf abg bayl ercrngvoyr, ohg vg jnf va snpg engure rnfl gb
|> |> pbageby nsgre fbzr cenpgvpr.
|> |>
|> |> Vg bayl unccrarq sbe guvf punaary, ab bguref.
|>
|> Onpx va gur yngr 1970f, gur R-svryq trarengrq ol gur obql JNF fghql rkgrafviryl
|> ol erchgnoyr Culfvpf vafgvghgvbaf.  Naq rirel "zlfgrevbhf" R-svryq curabzran
|> jnf sbhaq gb or nggevohgnoyr gb gur raivebzrag be culfvpny obql shapgvbaf, fhpu
|> guvatf nf fgngvp ryrpgevpvgl naq punetr trarengrq ol zhfpyr npgvbaf.
|>
|> Gur erny fgbel bs gur curabzran tbrf yvxr guvf, n srj crbcyr jnagrq cerff,
|> fb gurl gbbx nqinagntr bs fbzrguvat gurl urneq nobhg gung fbhaqrq zlfgrevbhf
|> va beqre gb trg gung cerff.
|>
|> Vs lbh jnag n ersrerapr gb guvf gel ybbxvat sbe jbex ol Cebs Ovpxry bs gur
|> Havirefvgl bs Nevmban.  Ur nccebnpurq guvf fhowrpg va n fpvragvsvp znaare,
|> jvgu ab cerwhqvprf rvgure jnl.
|>
|> Nf sbe lbhe nagraan fgbevrf, RZ jnirf vagresrer jura gurl vagrenpg jvgu
|> fhofgnaprf bs inelvat pbaqhpgvivgl.  Gur uhzna obql, sheavgher, jnyyf, naq
|> cnegvphyneyl lbhe nagraan ner nyy pbaqhpgbef.  Jura lbh punatr gur bevragngvba
|> bs gurfr pbaqhpgbef, jnirf bs qvssrerag serdhrapl vagresrer va inevbhf jnlf.
|> Vg vf n snveyl pbzzba rssrpg gung zbivat n GI, sheavgher, be rira univat
|> fbzrbar fgnaq arne gur GI (qhr gb gur ryrpgebylgvp fbyhgvba jr pnyy oybbq)
|> pna rssrpg erprcgvba.
|>
|> V'q rapbhentr nalbar vagrerfgrq gb gel gb ernq gur jbex bs npghny
|> culfvpvfgf jub jrer vagrerfgrq va guvf fhowrpg, vafgrnq bs whfg orvat
|> nznmrq ol n srj arjfcncre negvpyrf be na rcvfbqr bs "Gung'f Vaperqvoyr".
|>
|>                     - Wrss
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From: [e-mail] (John Emery)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 23:07:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10324 alt.alien.visitors:6143 sci.skeptic:24772

From the Pleiadian transcripts:

>You have heard us say that you live in the United States, the land of
>the free, or so you think. We are not here to start a revolution, we are here
>to expand what you believe to be possible and to assist you in your own growth
>and to turn you ultimately to yourselves and your own answers. There is
>nothing more to believe in than yourself.

I think this quote here is a fair representation of the whole of this article.
So I would like to make a few comments starting here.  My concern with this
teaching is the emphasis that is placed upon "self".  It is my observation
from this Pleiadian transcript that we are to center on ourself or become
"self-centered".  Does anyone else out there share my concern?  Does it not
seem that humanity has had so many problems with self-centeredness?  The
desire for power and self-pleasure has brought such destructive behavior
throughout the ages.

Should not the emphasis be less upon our own pleasures and more toward the
other person?

>    When you believe in a God that is so outside of yourself you are not
>acknowledging the God that is within you, that has been your birthright. This
>is a major state of awareness for each and every one of you to move into the
>holiness of your own being.

Perhaps a paraphrase might be to forsake the God who has revealed Himself
to us throughout the ages and become your own god.

>    Each and every one of you are all that you need to believe in. When you
>believe in yourself, expand what you think you are, you begin to learn the
>rules of the great mind game and then you are up there with the big guys.

In other words, believe in yourself and you can become like God.  May I
invite you to consider this quote:

    I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the
    stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  I will ascend
    above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the
    Most High.

Here is my concern, if you will allow.  This particular quote comes
from the Bible and speaks of the intent of the chief rebellor entity
against God, whom we refer as Satan, or the accuser.  These writings
were written thousands of years ago.

>       As you learn how to utilize the rules here, then you would be changing
>the game for all of the other players. As you all become awake, you will be
>bucking the system. And you will be showing that the rules indeed have changed
>and that even the most minute forms of consciousness have figured out that
>they are like the gods.

Please pardon my interrogation and my concern, but is this not considered
rebellion?  Going against the God to become "like the gods".  Here is
another quote:

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.  "For God knows
 that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like
 God..."

This quote here seems to be the heart of this teaching: become God/like gods/
like the big guys/etc. by acquiring the hidden knowledge.  But once again,
the above quote is that of the chief rebellor, Satan.

Who's right, the Pleiadians or God?  I implore you to consider carefully
what is being presented here.

>    QUESTION: What's the difference between the old rules and new rules?
>    PLEIADIANS: There existed in what you would call biblical times,
>certain entities that came to your planet that were playing. They knew the
>rules were that if you created and if you sent out certain ideas you could get
>masses of consciousness to follow this action. So these entities came to your
>planet and they affected cultures. They played with the alteration of your DNA
>and formed new men out of the basic Earth stock that existed here at different
>times. These entities sojourned and are written about in your Bible. They
>affected mankind through the ways that you are presently feeling the results
>of. The old rules were that this was a territory for what you would call
>certain skylords.

You're really saying that the truth of the Bible is just a game being played
upon us by ascended entities.  In other words, it is all a big joke.

>    These skylords made the rules. The rules were that humanities would
>worship those that were in the sky and that they would develop all sorts of
>expression of this worship. They would be given an endowment of themselves but
>they would not be given the complete information because then, who would they
>play with? There were other skylords who wanted these humanities to have a
>decent game to be playing in. And so there has been a challenge on your Earth
>Sphere Terra as to the type of information that has come in to allow these
>humanities to perceive what they can be. The old rules were that the large
>majority of humanities were not given the understanding of who they were. They
>were kept in ignorance. They were kept in darkness. They were kept in
>submission. You were kept from ultimately understanding who you were.
>
>    The new rules are that all is allowed. You are being blown wide open so
>to speak. The gates have been opened and it is fine for you to know your
>ultimate experience with creation.

May I warn the danger of this?  For instance:

Old Rule                    New Rule
================================    =================================
Don't murder each other            All is allowed
Don't steal from one another        All is allowed
Don't sleep with another's spouse       All is allowed
Don't lie                    All is allowed
Honor and respect you parents        All is allowed
Act fairly and justly            All is allowed


>    When you are love, and when you move with love, all you bring back to
>yourself is love because you are like a beacon and you draw it all to
>yourself.  When you do not love yourself and you go out looking for love,
>you cannot even see it because you do not have the electromagnetic capacity
>to even recognize it, to even draw it to yourself.

The old rule says that God is love and that love comes from Him and that we
can not truly love unless we know this God who is unique and separate from
ourself and who is the Creator of all.  The old rule says that love is
selfless and centers on the other person and their welfare.  It seeks to
to give not to get.  This new rule seems to say get all the love for yourself.

>    Remember that you, yourselves, are your primary tools for enjoyment and
>experience. It is you, yourselves, who are your greatest teachers. So live,
>for you have it all within you. Everything . else, when you discover this,
>will unfold before you in the most glorious magic of being.

The old rule says to live for the One who gave you love and who loves you
infinitely to the point of dying for you.  Then next, live for those around
you to bestow love upon them.  This new rule, once again, is to live for
yourself.

In closing:

Please realize that I'm not trying to "bash" anyone.  But in this open
forum would like to present the opposing argument for you to consider
with your own free will.  If you don't agree, that's ok, but allow me
a voice.  Here is my summary:

You are not all you need.  But there is One who is Ultimate Love.  We
need Him.  This person is Jesus Christ.  He is not a skylord who is
manipulating you to play some game, but really cares for you and loves
you and demonstrated His love by giving up His very life for you to
pay for our rebellion against God.  He is God, you are not.  The "you
can be God" message is not new as these Pleiadians scripts indicate,
but has been around for centuries and centuries.  This same message
was revealed in the Bible thousands of years ago as attributed to Satan.

Jesus is who we really need.  He is perfect strength in weakness and
a very present help in time of trouble.

Sorry to start sounding preachy.  But please consider this side of
the argument also!

God bless,

John
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!NewsServ!LRZnews!sunmanager!uh311ae
From: [e-mail] (Henrik Klagges)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Language of Light Geometry-Pleiadians6
Message-ID: <uh311ae.707240845@sunmanager>
Date: 30 May 92 15:47:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. News)
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Bull-Shit6

--
Cheers, Henrik
IBM Research
MPCI at LLNL ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!NewsServ!LRZnews!sunmanager!uh311ae
From: [e-mail] (Henrik Klagges)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Breaking Patterns-Pleiadians7
Message-ID: <uh311ae.707240879@sunmanager>
Date: 30 May 92 15:47:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Bull-Shit7



--
Cheers, Henrik
IBM Research
MPCI at LLNL ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!NewsServ!LRZnews!sunmanager!uh311ae
From: [e-mail] (Henrik Klagges)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <uh311ae.707240925@sunmanager>
Date: 30 May 92 15:48:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Bull_-_Shit9

--
Cheers, Henrik
IBM Research
MPCI at LLNL ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!NewsServ!LRZnews!sunmanager!uh311ae
From: [e-mail] (Henrik Klagges)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Codings-Pleiadians 10
Message-ID: <uh311ae.707240978@sunmanager>
Date: 30 May 92 15:49:38 GMT
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Bull_-_Shit10

--
Cheers, Henrik
IBM Research
MPCI at LLNL ([e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!tulane!rouge!srl01.cacs.usl.edu!pgf
From: [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oh, please save us from ourselves!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 16:26:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Anonymous NNTP Posting)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
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[e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>> [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan) writes:
>>
>>>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>>> If there are SOOO many alien civilizations out there, WHY OH WHY WON'T
>>>> THEY LAND IN A MAJOR CITY DURING DAYLIGHT SO THE REST OF US POOR MORTALS
>>>> CAN MEET THEM?!
>>>>
>>
>>>Here's a really dumb, obvious question I've always
>>>wanted to ask, after years of searching the skies unsucessfully
>>>for ufo's:
>>>    OK. People see ufo's all the time, and take pictures of them, etc.
>>>Ufo's are seen as lights moving around un the sky.
>I wish.  I have spent thousands of hours looking at the night sky in the
>country and I have  never seen a UFO.
>
>> Also, if they don't wish humans to remember abductions (just
>> playing along for a sec.) then _why_ don't they use a general
>> anesthetic of some sort? I don't think there's a hypnotic regression
>> technique in the world that would recover memories from _that_...
>I guess that you have never had an electromyogram test.  I have.  The
>neurologist sticks fat, sharp needles in various parts of the body to
>record nerve conductance rates and amplitudes.  VERY uncomfortable.
>They cannot use anaesthetics becausse that prevents nerve conductance.
>The pain is just something that has to be endured.  That's a fact.
A
I have had "operations" without anesthetic. You know those "tubes"
they sometimes put in little kids' ears so they can drain? Well,
that's done without anesthetic. In an adult, I've heard, the procedure
is painless(or less painful); but the adult knows to stay still. The
four year old doesn't, and squirms, which makes it painful...
which makes him squirm more... which makes it more painful...

>Now for speculation:  A sufficiently advanced medical operation could
>(with CAT scan, NMR, etc.) observe the position of a probe with great
>precision by mapping the sensory inputs as they arrive in the brain;
>as a bonus, characteristics of the intervening nerves can also be
>recorded.  However, the lpatient will be very unhappy with the procedure.
>If you were the doctor, you would prefer if the patient "forgot" the
>severe pain that would result.

>Just speculation, mind you, but a rationale.
>>
>> Phil Fraering [e-mail] where the x is a number from 1-5.
>        Cordially, Jim Hawtree <[e-mail]>
--
"Driver Liscence? For what? Mass driver? Disk drive?" - _Fallen
Angels_, Niven, Pournelle, and Flynn

Phil Fraering [e-mail] where the x is a number from 1-5.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!rutkows
From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: newcomer requests FAQ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 15:04:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Lines: 41

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark D. Kline) writes:


>What books or reports out there might convince a skeptic like me?
>_PLEASE_ don't refer me to anything on TV! :)

Actually, Mark, there's probably nothing in print that would convince
you.  We did a study several years ago in which we showed a "real" UFO
film to three different groups of subjects.  The first group heard a
narrator say that the UFO was "real", as verified by "experts".  The
second group had the narrator say that although the UFO was widely
thought to be real by "experts", it has now finally been explained.
The third group was a control.  "Believers" and "skeptics" were evenly
distributed within each group.

The result was, after further manipulation and testing, that
"believers" held their belief regardless of what they were told, and
the skeptics remained skeptics.

Well, there IS one way to be convinced, I guess.  I have several
reports from skeptics who were "converted" following a UFO experience!











>--
>=================================================================
>mark kline                                [e-mail]
>suny health science center, syracuse      voice: [phone]
>================= courtesy of syracuse university ================
--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
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From: [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 20:54:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10330 alt.alien.visitors:6150 sci.skeptic:24808


Don Showen writes:

>>    QUESTION: What's the difference between the old rules and new rules?
>>    PLEIADIANS: There existed in what you would call biblical times,
>>certain entities that came to your planet that were playing. They knew the
>>rules were that if you created and if you sent out certain ideas you could get
>>masses of consciousness to follow this action. So these entities came to your
>>planet and they affected cultures. They played with the alteration of your DNA
>>and formed new men out of the basic Earth stock that existed here at different
>>times. These entities sojourned and are written about in your Bible. They
>>affected mankind through the ways that you are presently feeling the results
>>of. The old rules were that this was a territory for what you would call
>>certain skylords.

John Emery replies:
>You're really saying that the truth of the Bible is just a game being played
>upon us by ascended entities.  In other words, it is all a big joke.

What the pleiadians claim here is a group of entities `supposedly on a higher
spiritual plane' who are purely evil and are written about in the Bible.
This includes Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.  I say they are purely
evil because they claim to represent the truth but they are totally
lying about their identity.  Abraham and Moses claimed to be men in the
old testament....but they weren't writing the whole truth.  They were
certainly lying about the monotheistic God they worshipped and made
covenants with...not the 'skylords' the pleiadians refer to.

Then we have Jesus--who claimed to be the messiah, the Anointed of
a monotheistic God.  Again, the Pleiadians make Jesus out to be a liar.
For Jesus preached a monotheistic God, a God he had an intimate relationship
with who he referred to as 'daddy'(Abba).

At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
with what these Pledians have to say, so either:

a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
    ever before in history.

b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).

I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
a shred of veracity.

-Arnold Nordeng
[e-mail]
--
____________________________________________________________
Arnold E. Nordeng           Internet:  [e-mail]
Design Engineer
John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
      "If addiction is judged by how long a dumb animal
       will sit pressing a lever to get a 'fix' of
       something, to its own detriment, then I would
       conclude that netnews is far more addictive than
       cocaine."                        -- Rob Stampfli
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Keywords: physics, spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 May 92 15:27:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tripp Wallin) writes:
>   Recalling some freshman physics classes about EM I do recall that
>   a solution rich in salt will conduct electricity. I believe that you
>   can even make a weak battery out of sea water because of this property.
>   And isn't blood very rich in salt. So wouldn't blood be a very weak
>   conductor as sea water is? This of course is just a guess though.......

Yes, the interior of the human body is conductive, contrary to what
someone posted earlier.  It just happens to be wrapped in a very good
insulator known as skin.  A current can easily be made to flow through
a human being by inserting the electrodes through the skin into the flesh.
Of course the resistivity is going to be higher than a metallic conductor,
but human flesh is still conductive.

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME

If you are not a well-informed scientist or physician you should never
insert current-inducing probes under the skin, since EXTREMELY small
currents will result in death if they pass through the wrong tissues.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 May 92 22:04:33 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Emery) writes:

>The old rule says that God is love and that love comes from Him and that we
>can not truly love unless we know this God who is unique and separate from
>ourself and who is the Creator of all.  The old rule says that love is

Yeah, right. Go read the heart breaking story of Jephthah, in Judges, to
see some of ol' Yahweh's love for humanity in action.


Maybe the SubGenii are right: Jehovah is an INSANE, EVIL ALIEN who STILL
THREATENS THIS PLANET!
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kirlian spoons and bending fields
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:36:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 30
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     Metaphysically speaking, the electromagnetic field generated
by the human body is the result of several functions.  This
information is common knowledge and can be found in both modern and
ancient documents.

     This field, or aura, could probably be detected if the same
funding used to look at the background radiation of the universe,
was applied to this field.

     To begin with, two spirals, one negative, one positive, start
around the anal cavity and by the time they reach the head they
have intersected seven times.  Within the tube of this spiral a
cord about as round as your thumb travels up and out the top of
your head.  This cord connects you with you oversoul, your guardian
angel.  When this cord is broken you die.  At the seven
intersections an energy wheel is created and these wheels radiate
outward to create a field around the body.  The Human Aura.  This
field is usually about the size of both your arms outstretched.
Starting from the bottom, the wheels should radiate at a frequency
which resonates with the colors red, orange, yellow, green, blue,
indigo, and violet.

     But of course, Metaphysics has no foundation in modern
science, YET...


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@==> HAVE FUN <==@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[e-mail]
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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From: [e-mail] (Richard D Warner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Summary: Taste of greys
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:34:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Montana
Lines: 8

>
> P.S. Ever try substituting greys for chicken in soup? I'm thinking
> they may have the cold remedy same as chicken. Greys are cheaper too.
>
 I've noticed that they taste a lot like chicken, but are less messy
to work with.  We have a little coop in the back yard where we have two
good breeders, and keep at any given time five or six more.  We only
have to feed them twice a week, and they don't make any noise at all.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gatech!utkcs2!brown
From: [e-mail] (Lance A. Brown)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 02:17:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Univ of TN, Knoxville - CS Department
Lines: 12
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 29 May 1992 23:07:18 GMT
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 29 May 1992 23:07:18 GMT

John Emory writes a comparison of a Pleiadian transcript and christianity.


Once again this man has managed to twist a new age topic into a conversion
attempt for his flavor of christianity.

Lance
--
Lance A. Brown  <[e-mail]>
  The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data,
     and the Data is Life -- The Player's Litany
                                 from _The Long Run_ by D.K. Moran
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From: [e-mail] (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 20:32:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nate Hawthorn) writes...

>This is why people should learn more about RF, what you have done
>can be done very easy. You were a big REFLECTOR and when you stand
>in just the right WAVELENGTH away from the TV, you have made a ANTENNA!
>
>YOu are probably correct in that the human body emits RF or energy
>as a matter of fact infrared is a RF frequency that we can see if we
>have the right equipment! (heat)
>
>Nate...

Guess again.  Infrared is only about 5 orders of magnitude away from RF (radio
frequency).  What's a few orders of magnitude between friends, anyway.  _THIS_
"is why people should learn more about RF" (i.e., so they know what it is before
they go spouting off about it).  The heat that you body radiates (i.e. infrared)
is irrelevant to the TV reception (otherwise the heat radiated by the components
of the TV would be much more significant).


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aliens & Science
Keywords: Aliens Science Opinions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 15:39:34 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle
Lines: 11

I get a kick out of reading whinning messages about people broadcasting
'uninformed' posts about UFO's and Alien visitors. This is alt.alien.visitors,
for crying out loud. If you want informed, scientific discussion on the
subject of Extraterrestrial Visits, go start a moderated section called
sci.alien or something. Otherwise you will just have to live with the
pompous opinions, pseudo-scientific bullcrap, and the occassional creative
insight.
--
--
  Robert J. Hall
  Systems Analyst, Boeing Computer Services
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From: [e-mail] (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 20:43:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes...
>
>Don Showen writes:
>
>>>    QUESTION: What's the difference between the old rules and new rules?
>>>    PLEIADIANS: There existed in what you would call biblical times,
>>>certain entities that came to your planet that were playing.
>
>At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
>with what these Pledians have to say, so either:
>
>a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
>    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
>    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
>    ever before in history.
>
>b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
>    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
>    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).
>
>I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
>a shred of veracity.

Excuse me, but this logical fallacy leaps off the terminal screen.  Why must I
choose between the Pleiadians and the Christians?  Why can't they _both_
be liars (or fools, more likely: "Never attribute to malice that which is
adequately explained by stupidity". - Mark Twain)?


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 19:47:55 GMT
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Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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 opinions expressed are those of the user andnot necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>Yeah, right. Go read the heart breaking story of Jephthah, in Judges, to
>see some of ol' Yahweh's love for humanity in action.

Yes; read it carefully.  There are no grounds for any accusation against
Jehovah in this story.  The evil action was Jephthah's idea,
and he carried it out without any consultation with Jehovah.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Kirlian fields and bending spoons
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:55:50 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
>The thread started off with someone talking seriously about the reality
>of the old Kirlian aura, that pesky EM field generated by the body
>in some mysterious way.

Not in any mysterious way at all, and *NOT* generated by the body.  It's
generated by attaching a high-voltage low-current power source to the body.
EEs know it as a corona discharge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INTRO: Gulfbreeze Text Files
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:46:57 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 15

With all the latest interest in the Gulfbreeze sightings, I've
decided to re-post some of the text files that I'd posted here
last year. This is for the newcomers to the newsgroup who
haven't seen them.

These came from a variety of sources; MUFONET, Paranet,Fido UFO,etc.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: UPI Article Gulf Breeze, Fla UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:51:20 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 103



The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE

DATE OF ARTICLE:  January 30, 1989
SOURCE OF ARTICLE:  NEWS
LOCATION:  PARKERSBURG, WV
BYLINE:  NONE (UPI)
========================================================
THIS FILE WAS PROVIDED BY THE UFO NEWSCLIPPING SERVICE
AND PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION
SERVICE
========================================================
                       LOOK, UP IN THE SKY
                               ...
                   FLORIDANS SURE PHOTOS PROVE
                               ...
                  UFOS VISITING PANHANDLE AREA

     Gulf  Breeze,  FLA.   (UPI) -- Photographs of an eerily  lit
cylindrical object drifting through the night sky have scientists
debating  whether  unidentified flying objects are  visiting  the
Florida Panhandle.

     More  than 135 Gulf Breeze's 6,000 residents  have  reported
seeing  a  strange craft hovering in the skies over the past  one
and a half years, the Tampa Tribune reported Sunday.

     One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed" to protect
his anonymity,  has produced startling photographs of the alleged
UFO.   Those  pictures,  showing a cylindrical craft ringed  with
lights and what may be windows,  lie at the heart of a  simmering
battle between two UFO investigating groups.

     The  Mutual UFO Network,  a 20-year-old group of  scientists
and layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real.  But the
Center  for  UFO Studies,  a non-profit group found by  the  late
astronomer, J. Allen Hynek, does not.

     The  network  cites a 90-page study done by  Navy  physicist
Bruce  Maccabee.   Maccabee  said  Ed could not  have  made  such
perfect fakes, and that the pictures are real.

     "A  professional magician would have a difficult time  doing
this," he said.

     Maccabee  also cites circumstantial evidence in Ed's  favor,
including  sightings  by others who described UFOs  identical  to
those in Ed's photos.

     The  center  relies  on its own researchers  and  on  Robert
Nathan of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.  Nathan, who conceded
he  had  not studied the pictures as completely as did  Maccabee,
said  the photos show glaring inconsistencies typical  of  double
exposures.

     Mark  Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the  Gulf
Breeze  case had "deteriorated into a shouting match" because his
group  was  forced  to play devil's  advocate  when  the  network
endorsed the pictures.  That endorsement biased Maccabee's study,
he said.

     "Except  those  intimately connected with  the  network,  90
percent  of serious UFO researchers think Gulf Breeze is a hoax,"
Rodeghier said.

     For  many Gulf Breeze residents,  what the experts think  is
beside the point -- they know what they saw.

     "I  was  exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak,  a  City  Council
member who said she saw a large, lighted craft twice in one night
in spring of 1988.   Ms.  Pollak said she watched the craft hover
over Pensacola Bay while, unknown to her, Ed shot pictures of the
UFO from only a few blocks away.

     "I can tell you now -- for every one person who has reported
seeing  the craft,  there are 10 who talk about it but don't want
anyone to know," Ms. Pollack said.

     "I'm not saying that I believe it's from another planet, but
it's  something  I  had never laid eyes on  in  my  life,"  added
Shirley McConnell.   Mrs.  McConnell and her husband,  who is the
medical examiner for Florida's District 1, say that last June the
craft  hovered  within  75 yards of their house for  nearly  four
minutes before drifting off.

     "People can say whatever they want about me, but I know what
I saw.  Ed didn't make this up," Mrs. McConnell said.

=================================================================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: 1/30/89 Gulf Breeze UFO Update.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:49:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 55




The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  1238  01-30-89 12:11 aes

Researchers say photos show UFO
   GULF BREEZE, Fla. (UPI) _ UFO experts are debating the authenticity
of photographs of an eerie cylindrical object glowing in the night sky
over the Florida Panhandle town of Gulf Breeze.
   More than 135 residents in the past 18 months have reported seeing
a strange craft hovering in skies over Gulf Breeze, the Tampa Tribune
reported Sunday.
   One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed," has produced
photographs showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may
be windows.
   The pictures have sparked a battle between two UFO investigating
groups.
   The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and
layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. The Center for UFO
Studies, a non-profit group founded by the late astronomer J. Allen
Hynek, does not.
   The network cites a 90-page study by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee,
who says Ed could not have fabricated such convincing photographs.
   "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this,"
he said.
   The center relies on its researchers and on Robert Nathan, of
NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He said the photos show glaring
inconsistencies typical of double exposures.
   Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the case has
"deteriorated into a shouting match" between the two groups, and that
the network's endorsement of the pictures biased Maccabee's study.
   "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of
serious UFO researchers think (the) Gulf Breeze (case) is a hoax,"
Rodeghier said.
   But residents of the town of 6,000 think they know what they saw.
   "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member
who claimed to see a large, lighted craft twice in one night last spring
over Pensacola Bay. "I can tell you now _ for every one person who has
reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want
anyone to know."

============================================================================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Styrofoam Saucer Found in Ed Walters House
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:53:42 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 65


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE TAMPA TRIBUNE, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 1990
-------------------------------------------

By DAVID TORTORANO
of United Press International

      PENSACOLA - A model flying saucer that cast doubts on a man's
claim he photographed UFOs two years ago has been tested and is being
returned to the man who found it, a newspaper editor said Tuesday.
      Ken Fortengerry, managing editor of the Pensacola News Journal,
said results of the tests would not be known for a couple of weeks.
He declined to say what tests were performed.
      The discovery of the 9-inch model was the latest twist on a story
that began in 1987, when contractor Ed Walters took photographs of
objects that appeared to be flying saucers near his home in Gulf
Breeze, a suburb of Pensacola.
      The photographs prompted a wave of sightings from other residents
that continue to this day. Walters claimed he had dozens of additional
encounters, including a face-to-face confrontation with a 4-foot alien.
      His book about the encounters is selling well.
      A private group that investigates UFO sightings calls the Gulf
Breeze flurry among the most notable sightings in U.S. history.
Skeptics have long claimed the pictures were faked, but offered no
proof.
      Then came the model.
      It was found in April by a man who moved into a house once owned
by Walters.  The newspaper got possession of the model and on Sunday
printed pictures by staff photographers using the model.
      They look similar to Walters' pictures.
      "This is a very critical piece of evidence and a very
controversial story," said Fortenberry, who said the newspaper was
besieged with calls Monday from the media asking about the model.
      The model was to be returned to the owners Tuesday.
      The man, who wished not to be identified, said he was installing
an ice-maker in his home and had gone to the attic to trace some pipes
when he found the model under some insulation.
      "It was not a shock or startling or anything," said the resident,
a scientist. He knew of Walters' involvement in sightings and figured
the model was one that Walters may have built for a reenactment. "I
thought nothing more about it."
      Later, he saw a diagram of the Walters' UFO.
      "I recall thinking to myself, that model looks a lot like this
diagram," he said. Last week he received a visit from a reporter from
the newspaper.
      "This, frankly, I find a little suspicious," said the resident,
who said the reporter showed up at the door and asked whether he had
found any photographs or models. That's when he told him.
      "I wish I had lied," he said.
      Walters insists there was ample opportunity for someone to plant
the model.
      "The house was on the market for 10 months, during which time it
was opened during the day and sometimes closed up and locked up at
night," said Walters. "Sometime, somebody planted this model."
--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: 10/30/90 News-Journal Ed Walters
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:52:45 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 72


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

**************************************************************
UFO REPORT POLITICAL, OFFICIAL SAYS
By Craig Myers
NEWS JOURNAL (TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990)
**************************************************************
A report that Gulf Breeze resident Ed Walters may have faked
photographs of UFOs is designed to hurt Walters' campaign for
city council, a Mutual UFO Network official said Monday.
Dan Wright, who heads UFO investigations for MUFON, said
Monday the organization is " concerned that one of our
investigators may have taken sides in a political dispute."
Walters co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings," which recounts
encounters he claims to have had with UFOs between November
1987 and March 1988. He is a candidate for City Council in
Gulf Breeze on the Nov. 6 ballot.
Walters would not comment Monday, but said earlier this month
that his alleged UFO encounters were not an issue in the
campaign.
The issue resurfaced Friday after Rex and Carol Salisberry,
investigators for the UFO network, released a summary of a
preliminary report that said Walters likely faked at least two
photographs reproduced in his book.
The Salisberrys, MUFON investigators of the year in 1989-1990,
were asked in July to reopen the case.
The new probe was prompted by the discovery of a model in the
attic of Walters' former home in Gulf Breeze. The plastic foam
and drafting paper model strongly resembled a drawing of an
alleged UFO in Walters' book.
In another incident, a former Gulf Breeze man said he helped
Walters fake UFO photos at least once in 1987.
On Monday, Wright said that Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray, a
longtime critic of Walters, may have "pressed" the Salisberrys
to release their report before election.
" It is possible that Gray may have found a sympathetic ear,"
Wright said in a telephone interview from Lansing, Mich.,
where he lives.
But Salisberry said that Gray had absolutely no influence on
the report's release. " I could care less about the City
Council race," Salisberry said. " I don't live in Gulf
Breeze."
Gray would not comment on Wright's allegations.
In his report, Salisberry questioned the legitimacy of the
so-called " road shot " which shows a UFO hovering over a
road.
The reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat,
actually is at an angle that does not match the road's
surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not
match the round light source, Salisberry said.
Salisberry said that he told MUFON International Director Walt
Andrus in September that he believed Walters faked some, if
not all, of his photos. It was then, he said, that he learned
some MUFON members were trying to discredit him.
Before the personal attacks began, he said he decided to make
public his findings. " I told them we would not tolerate being
discredited," he said. " We were already being categorized as   73
debunkers They have a history of shooting the messenger."
Wright on Monday said evidence still indicates Walters' photos
are legitimate and that MUFON has no interest in the City
Council race.
" If we find Rex didn't take into consideration all factors
and didn't make all the necessary contacts, we may have to
determine it is an incomplete report," Wright said.
--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!walter!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: GB Sentinel Articles 4/26/90
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:54:40 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 63


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following two articles appeared in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel
on April 26, 1990.  They relate to the continuing UFO sightings
that have been occurring in the Gulf Breeze, FL area over the
past few years. A photograph showing a large "light" in the sky
was also presented.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

SCIENTIST STUDIES SIZE AND DISTANCE OF UFO

   Multiple sightings and photographs help scientists locate the
size and distance of the red glowing object that flew over Gulf
Breeze on Wednesday, April 18, 1990.  Several of the thirty-plus
witnesses who saw the object also video taped the sighting
which further aids the investigation.  Using the 35 mm photos
of the object, the angle of elevation and distance to the object
was calculated to be approximately 3.4 miles when first seen
to approximately 1.7 miles when the object disappeared.

   An optical study is now being conducted by a leading expert
from Washington, D.C., Dr. Bruce Maccabee.  If, upon further
study, the image on the 35 mm negatives proves to be .0625 mm,
then the object was about 15 feet wide.  The brilliant red glow of
the object was also witnessed by officers John Rhodes and Don
Stevens who said, "It was not an airplane or helicopter, it was
a very bright red light at least several miles away. We don't
know what it was."

   Doug Wilkes witnessed the object and later reported to Police
Chief Brown, "I'm ex-military and an expert on helicopter profile;
this was no helicopter or flare or anything that I could identify."

   From April 11 to April 18, there were five multiple witness
sightings involving as many as 60 people, four videotapes and
dozens of photos.

------------------------------------------------------------------

WITNESS DESCRIBES UFO SIGHTING

   Andy O'Daniel came to the Sentinel last week to share his
UFO sighting of Wednesday evening, April 11th.

   Andy said he was just stepping out of the dugout about 9:00 p.m.
when he saw a bright red/orange light rise from the trees
behind left field.

   It went straight up, stopped, then came over the ball park and
stopped again "as if it was checking things out," said Andy.

   Then it moved south out of sight. "I don't know what it was,"
said Andy.  "But I know what it wasn't and it wasn't a plane,
helicopter, or balloon."
--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!walter!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:56:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 28


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Date: 03-12-91  00:19
From: John Hicks
To:   all
Subj: GB sighting

                     STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION
           by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.

  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile
bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a
bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that
way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their
direction. They detected no sound from the object.
  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a
brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes
and there were nine additional witnesses.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Salisberry interview, article, Walters hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:57:31 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 986


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

                      *  THE PRESS RELEASE *

Carol and Rex Salisberry
State Section Directors for
Pensacola MUFON

Interview, questions and answers bearing on recent
investigation of the Walters' Case.
**************************************************************
We wish to release to the public a progress report on our work
involving the reopening of the Walters' UFO case. First, two
voice stress analyses have been made on a tape recording of
the telephone conversation among Mayor Ed Gray, Chief Jerry
Brown, Craig Meyers, Mark Curtis and Tommy Smith on 15 June
1990. These analyses both indicate that Tommy Smith was
telling the truth in all respects regarding the allegations
which he made concerning Mr. Walters and the UFO case. Second,
we have investigated the writing on the model which Mr. Menzer
found in the attic above his garage and have determined that
the paper used in the model could not have been made from a
house plan that Mr. Walters claims to have drawn in September
1989 for the Lynn Thomas family. This second point has been
independently verified by others including Mr. Phil Klass.
Third, we have conducted analyses of Photos 14 and 19 in the
Walters' book and have concluded that there is a very high
probability that the reflections shown in these photos could
not have been made by a hovering object as described by Mr.
Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual
impossibility for the reflections to have occurred as depicted
in the photos. It is, however, very easy to have created these
photos by using a small model and double exposure camera
techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR-TV. With
Photos 14 & 19 shown to be probable fakes, scientific and
intellectual integrity dictate that other photos depicting the
same models should be considered as highly suspect. This
includes the " Believer Bill ", the " Jane " and the so called
" Tommy Smith " photos ( the voice stress analyses indicate
that Tommy Smith did not take these photos).

Question: Are you making this disclosure on behalf of MUFON,
or is MUFON intending to release your information through a
press conference or other means?

Answer: We are providing this information of our own volition
and are not speaking for MUFON. We don't know at this point
what MUFON intends to do.
**************************************************************
Question: Why are you making this disclosure without sanction
of MUFON?

Answer: Over the past several weeks, many people have advised
us of their opinions that MUFON will not acknowledge or
release any information from our investigation which tends to
disprove the Walters' case. WE have continued to believe in
the objectivity of MUFON and believed that they would accept
the results of our work at face value. However, in the past
few days we have come to believe that others may be correct in
their assessment of the situation.
**************************************************************
Question: What has caused you to change your opinion in this
regard?

Answer: We first provided Mr. Andrus, International Director
of MUFON, with our preliminary analysis by telephone on 9
Sept, 1990. At that time we described for him a simple
demonstration that he could perform to convince himself that
we were correct. It was decided at the time to seek additional
analysis from other experts to support our own work. We did
this and sent Mr. Andrus an Interim Report on 23 Sept, 1990
which contained additional expert analysis confirming our
conclusions. We talked with Mr. Andrus by telephone in late
September and learned that he had not even done the simple
demonstration that we had suggested to him. This tends to make
us believe that he is not giving serious consideration to our
analysis or the supporting analysis of other experts. Also, we
have now learned that elements of MUFON are attempting to
discredit us as " debunkers " which we deem eminently unfair
in consideration of the large amount of time and effort we
have devoted to objective reassessment of this case.
**************************************************************
Question: Can you describe the simple demonstration for us and
could our readers do the demonstration for themselves?

Answer: Yes, it is very easy to do. It is basically a
demonstration to show what the reflection in Photo 19 should
look like when reflected from the flat road surface. The data
to use can be taken from Dr. Maccabee's article in the 1988
MUFON Symposium Proceedings. These are as follows: distance
from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5) feet; the
diameter of the light ring at the bottom of the object is 7.5
feet; the height of the object above the road is about 3 feet;
and the height of the camera is about 5 feet. You then set up
a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot to do your demonstration. For
example.... Cut a circle of white paper 7.5 inches in
diameter, place the white circle on a flat service and move
away 185 inches to simulate the camera location, then raise
your eye level to 5 inches above the elevation of the white
circle, and you can see how the reflection should look. If you
look at this photograph which we took of our own demonstration
you can see that the reflection should appear as a narrow
horizontal line and not as the much taller reflection as shown
in Photo 19 of Walters' book. Walters' photo depicts the
reflection as " hanging in mid air " instead of flat on the
road as should be expected. It could be argued that the
Walters' camera might have been higher than the 5 feet which
we have used, but we have shown that the camera height would
need to have been about 45 feet in the air to produce the
reflection in Photo 19. If you will look at photo 19 in
Walters' book, you can readily see that the higher elevation
was not possible. Also, here is another photo which we took of
our demonstration to show the results of the higher camera
height, and you can see that the image of the reflection now
approximates those in Walters' photos. This next photo shows
the result if the road surface had been slanted up by about 14
degrees under the object. You can again see that this
approximates the reflections in Walters' photos. The point
here is that there is a strong indication that a small model
and double exposure camera techniques were used by Walters' to
take photos 14 and 19. There is strong support for this in the
work done by Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. He made the same mistake
in setting up his model which produces the same " impossible
reflection " results as shown in Walters' photos.

Your readers can get an idea of what we are talking about here
by observing the reflections of car headlights on the road as
they drive at night, or by noting shadows on the ground in the
early morning or late evening.
**************************************************************
Question: You said that you have also done a mathematical
analysis, what does this show.

Answer: Since the three-dimensional appearance of the
purported reflection is converted to two dimensions on film,
we calculated what that two-dimensional presentation to the
camera should be. The horizontal component is essentially
unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, but the
vertical presentation is calculated by trigonometric
relationships as shown here. You can see that the vertical
dimension that the camera would see is about 2.5 inches. You
can compare this to the measured and calculated value of 22.5
inches from photo 19 and readily see that vertical
presentation to the camera  in Walter's photos is roughly 9
times " taller " than it should be. This should present
conclusive evidence that photo 19 was faked. The same
conclusion can be made for photo 14 since it is essentially
identical to photo 19 except for the geographic location and
the use of different models. With these two photos shown to be
fakes, all other photos which show the same model, should also
be suspected of being fakes. This would include the " Believer
Bill " and " Jane " photographs as well as the so called "
Tommy Smith " photos. By the way, an independent analysis
conducted of the purported " Smith " photos by a Ph.D. level
photogramatrist indicates his conclusion that, " The sequence
looks systematic and staged with a model at 6-9 feet. " This
tends to support Tommy Smith's allegations that Mr. Walters
had taken those photographs of a model.
**************************************************************
Question: What about the other experts which you claim have
validated your conclusions?

Answer: We have had an analysis done by a local Analytical
Physicist who hold a Masters Degree in Physics and does these
types of analyses for his employer. He has constructed a
rigorous mathematical model to show what the expected
reflection should be under almost any set of conditions. When
Maccabee's data, which I mentioned earlier, are substituted
into this model the results are essentially equivalent to our
own, i.e. that the reflections in Walters' photos 14 & 19 are
about 9 times taller than they should be, which again
indicates that the reflections in Walters' photos are
suspended in air and not off of the road or field as one would
expect. The conclusions of this analyst are, " A direct
measurement from photo 19 reveals that r=4. This is physically
impossible, in view of the above analysis. Therefore photo 19
is a physically impossible representation of reality and is
faked. The above analysis is rigorous and leaves no room for
doubt. It assumes only cylindrical symmetry of light emissions
with respect to the object axes of symmetry and the accuracy
of Maccabees's calculations." ( r in this conclusion refers to
the aspect ratio of the horizontal divided by the vertical
dimensions.)

We have another analysis done by a Ph.D. level
photogrammatrist who is a friend. His results agree closely
with those of ours which we demonstrated earlier. His
conclusion is, " The reflection in Gulf Breeze photo 19 is
inconsistent with the reported events." We will not use his
analysis because of his need for anonymity.

We have also shared our work with Dr. Robert Nathan who is
doing an independent analysis of his own at our request. He
has expressed his agreement with our analysis and conclusions
verbally over the telephone, but because of his busy schedule,
he has not yet completed his own analysis.

We have also consulted with another Ph.D. level
photogrammatrist who has done previous analyses of the
Walters' photos. He has expressed verbal agreement with our
analysis with the comment " I wish that I had thought of that
aspect".

Arguments may be advanced that a non uniform illumination
might be able to produce the reflections as shown in the
photos 14 & 19. The experienced analysts mentioned before
assure us that such non-uniform illumination should still
produce an elliptical pattern for the reflection. However, the
brightness of the reflection might be " spotty " ( i.e.
brighter in some places and dimmer in others. ) Also, The
diamond shape of the reflections in these two photos is not a
normal expectation and is probably the result of error in
planning how the reflection should look when the model was
photographed for double exposure process.

**************************************************************
Question: Dr. Bruce Maccabee has done considerable work on
these photos and seems to have concluded that they are real
UFOs. Your analysis and conclusions seem to be in conflict
with his. How do you explain that?

Answer: Numerous experts have applauded Dr. Maccabee on his
analytical work, however, many of them have questioned his
assumptions and his logic ised in drawing his conclusions. For
example, on page 145 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings,
Maccabee states " The reflection in the road below the object
is unusual because of its shape and brilliance. It is not
round, but more diamond shaped, indicating that the object was
emanating a non-circular pattern. The reflection beneath the
object in Photo 14 ( Figure 19 ) is also diamond shaped." Here
he draws the conclusion that the circular source ( to which he
admits on the same page ) made a diamond shaped reflection,
which as an optical physicist, he should know to be
impossible. He goes on to say " ( From a hoax point of view
this is surprising because a model with a bulb inside would
very probably give a circular illumination pattern.)" This
sentence indicates that Maccabee assumed that one needed to
put a bulb inside of the model to create a hoax. He
conveniently ignored other hoax scenarios, such as the one
used by Mark Curtis ( and probably by Mr. Walters ) wherein
the shape of the " reflection" was designed into the model set
up. Maccabee goes on to say " The brilliance of the reflection
is also surprising, considering that it was reflecting off a
(wet) road." We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not
address this incongruity in more detail since it is known that
he and Mr. Charles Flannigan conducted experiments in this
regard. When you consider that the surface of the road ( Black
top) is highly absorptive, it should be obvious to even the
casual observer that the intensity of the " reflection" is
much too great when compared to the intensity of the source.
We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not address some
of these important considerations which lead directly to
conclusions that Photo 19 is a fake.

Another incongruity in Dr. Maccabee's work can be found in the
last paragraph on page 169 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium
Proceedings. In this paragraph, Dr. Maccabee explains the
difficulties that Mr. Walters would have in photographing a
model in Photos 36 L&R with the time elements involved and
with witnesses nearby in the parking lot. He ignores the fact
that Mr. Walters' wife, Frances, was with him and could have
greatly reduced the difficulties. In fact, it would have been
a rather simple process for two people as pointed out
elsewhere by Maccabee in the article. Maccabee also fails to
report that Frances did not emerge from the bushes at the same
time as Mr. Walters and had ample time to have hidden away the
model and other paraphernalia involved. Other witnesses have
confirmed that Frances did indeed remain concealed by the
bushes for some period of time after Mr. Walters appeared with
the photos. Dr. Maccabee has also asserted that rigorous
proceedures were used to record the numbers of the backs of
the photos to track them and obviate the possibility of
substitution. These assertions have been refuted by Mr.
Charles Flannigan and the witnesses who were present at the
time. None of the witnesses recorded the numbers!

The public may not be aware that Dr. Maccabee was paid for his
work concerning the Walters' case. At this point, we have not
been able to ascertain when he was paid, how much, who paid
him, when he was paid, or what he was expected to do for the
pay. With this in mind, we have excluded him from our
investigation team to avoid accusations of bias in our
results. Now, with our conclusions in conflict with those of
Dr. Maccabee, we expect the accusations anyhow.

We understand that Dr. Maccabee and Mr. Robert Oechsler have
done analyses on the so called " Tommy Smith " photos. We
requested the results of their analyses as early as July, but
neither shared them with us, which we find strange. Along the
same line, many investigators around the country have shared
their results with us, but we have not been able to
reciprocate in kind because of our loyalties to MUFON.

We do not want this misconstrued as any kind of personal
attack on Dr. Maccabee for that is not our intent. He has
written and spoken profusely on this case and we simply
disagree with many of his assuptions and conclusions.
**************************************************************
Question: What have you determined about the model found in
the Walters' former home?

Answer: We have statements in writing from the current owners
of the home and we have interviewed them on several occasions.
We, as well as other investigators, have determined that the
house plan segment used to build the mid-section of the model
could not have come from the plans which were drawn in
September 1989 as claimed by Mr. Walters. Those plans specify
that the exterior of the home to be " Sinergy " whereas the
plans in the model specify a brick exterior. The address for
the home to be built from the plans drawn by Mr. Walters in
September 1989 would have been 700 Jamestown Dr. whereas the
address on the plans in the model appears to be 712 Jamestown
Dr. The residence at 712 Jamestown DR. was apparently built by
Mr. Walters in early 1987. This represents a direct
contradiction to the claims of Mr. Walters that he drew the
plans found in the model in September 1989.

Mr. Walters has also publicly stated that the model was in
plain sight in the attic when Mr. Menzer found it. This is a
contradiction to Mr. Menzer's statement in which he indicates
that he did not notice the model until he moved a considerable
amount of loose insulation aside. The question begs to be
asked, " Did Walters have foreknowledge of the location and
relative visibility of the model in the attic prior to its
discovery by Mr. Menzer?"

If you look on the bottom of page 28 in Walters'  book where
he provides a description of the "UFO" that he saw: " There
were also some diamond shapes between some of the large black
squares and, unseen on the photos, there were definitely
horizontal lines going around the main body. ( see drawing
following page 64)". The drawings following page 64 do not
show any horizontal lines except for the seams between the
various sections. In the book, " photo 14, light-blasted and
enhanced for detail, enlargement" show these same seams, so
Walters could not have meant them when he described the
horizontal lines. However, the model found in Menzer's atic
have neatly drawn horizontal lines around the main body of the
model, which is the only place that we can find the horizontal
lines as described by Mr. Walters. This seems to indicate that
Mr. Walters knows more about the model than he has admitted.

It is also noteworthy that 12 and 14 in Walters' book bear a
marked resemblance to the model found in the Menzer's attic.
**************************************************************
Questioon: What about the witnesses that have come forward and
have claimed to have seen what Ed Walters has photographed?

Answer: We agree that a few witnesses came forward in late
1987 and in 1988, after they had seen the photos, and claimed
to have seen a similar UFO. It is not our purpose to discredit
those witnesses. We examined their case file reports and news
accounts, and we have been able to interview most of them in
person or over the phone. Under the conditions of observation
(altitude, time of day, length of sighting, angle of view
etc.) and general descriptions given, what they saw was
similar in some cases but not an exact match to the Walters'
photos. For example, we interviewed Charles and Doris Sommerby
recently. They said that the UFO that they saw in Nov. of 1987
was at least 150ft. across, had one row of round portholes
with bright lights shining out of them, had a large lighted
dome on the top that covered most of the top-half of the UFO,
and it had a circle of smaller bright lights on the bottom.
According to Dr. Maccabee's calculations the UFO that Mr.
Walters photographed was only 12 to 25 ft across, had 2 rows
of square portholes, had a small light on the top, and a solid
ring of light on the bottom. Because they saw it on the same
day that Walters reported photographing his UFO, they assumed
it was the same. We have found that other witnesses did not
see all the same details that are included in the photos, and
because they made their report after they had seen a photo, a
psychological principal known as "gestalt" may have influenced
their report.

(The MUFON Investigators Manual cautions against contaminating
the witnesses by showing them photographs of other sightings
prior to their own independent description.) But it is also
important to recognize that witness testimony is supportive,
but does not prove the authenticity of the Walters' photos.
These two issues must be separated in the final analysis.


**************************************************************
Question: What about the lie detector tests that Mr. Walters
claims that he has passed?

Answer: The Lie Detector Tests-- A misleading Issue.

In the Aug. 16, 1990, Gulf Breeze Sentinel, Ed Walters wrote
an article entitled " Tommy Smith's Statements Questioned." In
this article Ed writes: On June 19 I was challenged by Tommy's
father to take a lie detector test. On that same evening I
took the test and passed. Ed Walters has now taken 4 seperate
tests with three different examiners and passed them all. My
wife Frances and Hank Boland were also tested previously."

In an interview with Ed and Frances in Sept. 1990 in which
Charles Flannigan and the Salisberrys were present, we asked
Frances if she had ever taken a lie detector test and she
said, "No"

She explained that a taped interview had been tested by MUFON
without their specific approval. Two tapes were submitted by
Bob Oeschler to an examiner in Maryland. The examiner stated:
" The way the interviews were done and the type of information
discussed does not give the examiner the verbal material
necessary for him to be able to say if these individuals are
being completely truthful with the interviewer.

This examiner does find two areas in Mr. Hank's ( Hank Boland)
interview that showed meaningful reaction which indicates a
problem with his answer. The answer he gives regarding the
reason for the object disappearing when Ed saw (Hank). Mr.
Hanks said that the craft communicates through Ed and can
sense things through Ed. The other area is where he does not
want to sign the form with his true name."

On June 19 Ed had himself tested with the Psychological Stress
Evalutator, voice stress test by Robert Lauland in New
Orleans. ( It is interesting to note that a test is only as
good as its questions, or that the questions will determine
the outcome, pass or fail) Here are a few of the questions
that were asked: " Is it true that you did not kill a circular
area of grass on the soccer field of G.B. High by using a
trampoline?" A better question might have been, Did you tell
Tommy Smith that you killed the grass with a trampoline? The
real issue is whether or not he told Tommy certain things. (
see additional questions below)

In Feb., 1988 Mr. Charles Flannigan arranged to have Ed tested
by a reputable examiner. Mr. Flannigan and other investgators
created a list of questions that the examiner could use. Ed
chose not to be tested under these supervised conditions.
Instead he went by himself, on 2 occasions, to another
polygrapher and paid for a polygraph. The questions that the
investigators prepared were not used by the examiner, and no
one from MUFON accompanied him to the testing site or observed
the conditions of testing. This examiner stated that, " He
(ED) claims to desire no personal gain or renumeration from
these sightings. " ( However, Ed and Frances did have a book
in preparation at this time and were actively seeking
publication, which usually means money.)

It would be desirable for Ed, Frances, their son Danny, Hank
Boland, and Tommy Smith to all take supervised polygraph tests
to insure the validity of the results. So far the Smith family
has agreed to these conditions if the Walters family would
agree also. The Walters family has so far refused.
**************************************************************
Questions from Lauland voice stress analysis June 19, 1990 and
observations on these questions:

1... Is it true that you did not make the UFO model that was
found at 612 Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl, ? Ans: Yes
( observation: Someone could have made the model for Ed, and
he could be answering this question truthfully)

2... Is it true that you did not have a model of a UFO at 612
Silverthorn Dr. in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Ans: Yes. ( observation:
If Ed had more than one model of UFOs at the house, this
answer could be truthful but misleading.)

3... Is it true that you do not know who made the UFO model
found on Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Answer: Yes.
(observation: The question has been skillfully juggled from
the previous pattern by substituting ON for AT and omitting
the house number. Ed could be answering truthfully in that the
model was not found on the street, but inside the house.)

4... Is it true that you have never taken stereo camera photos
of any airplane landing any time in your life? Answer: Yes.
(observation: Ed could be answering this question truthfully
since it is the wrong question, The question should have read,
" Is it true That you told Tommy Smith that you went out and
took a picture of an airplane landing at night, held the
camera sideways, " since that was the allegation made by Tommy
Smith)

5... Is it true that you did not kill a circular area of grass
on the soccer field of Gulf Breeze High School by using a
trampoline? Answer: (observation: again this is the wrong
question. Tommy Smith's allegation was, " If I remember
correctly, he told me that he turned a small trampoline upside
down on it for a while and jumped up and down on it."
Obviously the question does not address the allegation.

Mr. Lauland states in his opening paragraph, " ...and the
questions were reworded for clarification..." (This gave
Walters the opportunity to carefully word the questions so
that he could answer truthfully without providing any
meaningful results.)
**************************************************************
Question: What do you foresee will be the official MUFON
position to your disclosure of this information?

Answer: We really don't know, but we feel that we have an
obligation to share the results of our efforts with the
citizens of Gulf Breeze and the Pensacola area. Remember that
we too were believers of the Walters case and only changed our
minds after the preponderance of evidence indicated that there
was a hoax involved. We hope that MUFON will consider our
evidence and support our conclusions. We sincerely hope that
MUFON will continue to be an objective investigative agency of
the UFO phenomena.
**************************************************************
Question: You probably know that Mr. Walters is running for
the office of City Council member. What effect do you forsee
that your disclosure will have on his campaign?

Answer: We are not residents of Gulf Breeze and hence have no
interest in the elections of the city. Our timing on the
release of this information is precipitated by the lnowledge
that some elements of MUFON are attempting to discredit us. We
also would like to bring the investigation to a close because
we have many important things to do that have been deferred
because of our work on the case. We even gave up our usual
summer vacation because of it.
**************************************************************
Question: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

Answer: Yes, we would like to repeat that the validity of the
hundreds of other UFO related events which have been reported
in the area is not affected by this disclosure and the outcome
of the Walters case. We still remain students and
investigators of the UFO phenomena and are grateful to the
many witnesses who have shared their experience with us. We
hope that they will continue to do so.
**************************************************************
**************************************************************

                     *THE PRINTED NEWS ARTICLE*

PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1990
..............................
INVESTIGATORS DOUBT UFO AUTHOR
BY CRAIG MYERS
NEWS JOURNAL
..............................

Two investigators for the MUTUAL UFO Network said Friday  they
believe Gulf Breeze author Ed. Walters faked some of the
photos of UFOs that appear in his book.

" We believe that UFOs exist," said Rex and Carol Salisberry
of Navarre of their study of several of Walter's photos. " We
entered this investigation with a natural and favorable bias
toward the Walter's case, " but " our investigation and
analysis lend to the conclusion that several, if not all of
the photos are probable hoaxes."

Walters, who co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings" with his
wife Frances, maintains the photos are real and that they were
taken during numerous encounters between November 1987 and
March 1988.

Walters has appeared on numerous radio and television shows,
including " Unsolved Mysteries " and the Oprah Winfrey Show,
to recount his experiences with UFOs.

He was reported to be out of town Friday and could not be
reached for comment.

In July the couple was named " Investigators of the Year " at
a MUFON Symposium in Pensacola.

Walt Andrus, MUFON's international director, said Friday that
his organization is not yet ready to give its stamp of
approval to the Salisberry's four month investigation of the
photos.

" I don't know how they arrived at that decision." Andrus said
from his office in Sequin, Texas. " It is certainly premature.
He has no business talking to reporters. It has never been
cleared through here. He can't make representations for the
organizations."

Andrus, who has for two years endorsed the Walters case,
appointed Salisberry in July to take a second look at the case
after questions surfaced about the credibility of Walter's
photos.

The first question arose after a model was found in the
Walter's former residence in Gulf Breeze in March. The
Styrofoam and drafting paper model was found in the attic of
the home and strongly resembled a drawing Walter's made of one
of his UFO sightings.

The second question arose when Tommy Smith, formerly of Gulf
Breeze, said in July that he witnessed Walter's fake UFO
photos. Smith said Walters asked him to take some faked UFO
photos to the Gulf Breeze newspaper and claim they were real.

But Andrus on Friday said Smith is lying and the UFO model was
hidden in the attic by someone who wants to discredit Walters.

"Tommy Smith can't prove any of his statements- they are
outlandish lies," Andrus said.

The Salisberrys said Smith's testimony and the model
contributed to their conclusion, but more convincing was an
analysis of Walter's so-called " road shot " that shows a UFO
hovering over a road.

Salisberry said the reflection of the spacecraft, which should
be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the
road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also
does not match the round light source on the bottom of the
craft, he said.

The Salisberrys said the photo and a second photo probably was
created by a double-exposure-- a process by which a model is
photographed and the image is exposed again onto the same
frame of film.

" With these photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other
photos... should be considered as highly suspect, " Salisberry
wrote in the preliminary report.

Seven MUFON members investigated the sightings in 1988 and
concluded Walter's story was true. The Salisberrys were not
among the original investigators, but joined MUFON in November
1988.

Andrus said that while the Salisberrys are good investigators,
they cannot yet speak for MUFON.

" They ( the Salisberrys ) do not have grounds to arrive at
that conclusion until it is submitted to us. We will have to
look at their facts," Andrus said.

The Salisberrys have not yet submitted their report to MUFON.

Phil Klass, a contributing editor to Aviation Week & Space
Technology magazine and a longtime Walters critic, said Andrus
is too " proud and stubborn " to accept the report.

" I think the Salisberrys should be commended for being
willing to change their earlier opinion," said Klass.

But Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photographic analyst who has
defended Walter's photos. said the road reflection does not
discredit the photo.

Maccabee said his analysis of the photo shows light from
beneath the object was projected at an angle-like car
headlights shinning ahead of a car on a wet road.

Maccabee said Friday he still is open-minded about the
Walter's sightings, but said it would take more convincing
evidence than Salisberry's report to convince him of a hoax.

" Nothing I have seen has changed my mind," Maccabee said.

Salisberry said his conclusion on Walters' photo does not
shake his own belief in UFOs. And he said his report won't end
the Walters' debate.

" The problem with Walters' story isn't a UFO problem, it is a
human problem". Salisberry said. " If the Walters' case is
typical of most UFO cases, the debate will probably go on for
years in spite of any evidence pro or con."


**************************************************************
**************************************************************
               *THE INTERIM REPORT TO MUFON*

From:        Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry    23 September 1990
             Navarre Beach, Fl. 32566-7235

To:          Walter H. Andrus, Jr.
             103 Oldtowne Road
             Sequin, Tx 78155-4099

Subject:     Interim Report on the reopening of the Walters'
UFO Case


Background: The investigators, Carol & Rex Salisberry had not
been involved with the prior investigation of the Walter's
Case and had accepted the MUFON assessment of its validity
without close personal scrutiny. When Tommy Smith came forward
with his allegations on 15 June 1990, the investigators
doubted them and, in fact made several public statements in
support of the Walter's Case. After the press conferences on
19 June 1990, wherein Mr. Charles Flannigan ( Florida MUFON
State Director) announced the reopening of the Walters' Case
and the commitment by MUFON to finding the truth, we were
asked by Mr. Flannigan to assist him in the next phase of the
investigation. During a meeting of Mr. Walter Andrus, MUFON
International Director, Mr. Flannigan, and Mr. Salisberry on
Thursday 5 July 1990, Mr. Andrus expressed his capacity to
accept the result that the Walter's Case was a total fraud if
that was proven to be the case. We deemed this to be a
critical commitment on his part , because we didn't want the
results of our work to " be swept under the rug" if they were
contrary to the then prevailing views of many MUFON officials
and others. Upon receiving this commitment from Mr. Andrus we
proceeded with the investigation with an open mind and with
the greatest degree of objectivity that we could muster. Our
previous, personal supportive views of the case had to be
subjugated so as not to influence the fact finding process.

Tentative Conclusions: Although there is much work remaining
to be done in the investigation of this case, we have arrived
at  result that we deem should be brought to the attention of
MUFON before it is uncovered and released to the public by
outside interests. On 9 September 1990, our analysis of Photo
19 of the Walters' case indicated a very high probability that
the reflection on the road could not have been made by an
object hovering over the road as described by Mr. Walters and
validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual physical
impossibility for the reflection to occur as depicted in Photo
19. Perhaps one of the easiest methods of producing the photo
is by use of a small model (photographed at close range) and
double exposure techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis
of WEAR TV. Mr. Curtis and his associate, a biologist and
model maker, have been harshly criticized by their critics. We
were allowed to witness their effort and know that their
intent was to demonstrate that the process was feasible and
their purpose was not to duplicate the Walters' photo. (It is
interesting that they too introduced the fatal flaw of
creating a reflection which was not possible under the
circumstances.) The detailed account of our analysis of Photo
19 is shown in Attachment 1.

Mr. Flannigan and Mr. Salisberry telephoned Mr. Andrus on
Sunday evening 9 September 1990 to inform him of the results
of the analysis. During the conversation it was suggested that
two independent experts be contacted to confirm the validity
of our analysis. Those two experts were provided the details
of the analysis and have orally responded with their
confirmations of the validity of the results.

With Photo 19 shown to be a probable hoax, Photo 14 is
likewise categorized since it is essentially identical to
Photo 19 except for geographic location. With these two photos
reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos which depict
an image of the same model should be considered as highly
suspect. Intellectual and scientific integrity then dictate
that the suspect photos be downgraded in the overall
assessment of the validity of the case.

Another aspect of the Walters' case which has come into
question is whether or not he knew how to take double
exposures prior to 11 November 1987. Mr. S. Peter Neumann, of
WEAR TV and a resident of Gulf Breeze, has informed us that
Mr. Walters had told him and his wife much earlier than 11
November 1987 that Walters sometimes used double exposure
photography to amuse the young people who attended the parties
in the Walters' home. Mr. Neumann has declined to provide us
with a written and signed statement to this effect, but
indicated that he would provide the same information to anyone
calling by telephone. Additionally, the young people whom we
have interviewed relate that Mr. Walters consistently "had a
camera in his hand" at the various activities at which he was
present. These young people also confirmed that Mr. Walters
sometimes took what appeared to be trick photos and that they
could not understand how it was done.

Discussion: It is emphasized that the reassessment of the
Walters' Case should not be cause to believe or disbelieve the
hundreds of other UFO related experiences in the Pensacola
area. Each reported case had been evaluated on its own merits
and should stand as reported. It is even quite probable that
the Walters family have had experiences with UFO related
phenomena; however, this is difficult to assess at this point
because of the previous preoccupation with the photos which
may have distorted the data.

Recommendation: MUFON should release the results of our
analysis to the public as soon as practical. We consider this
important to maintain our integrity as an objective UFO
investigative organization.

                           Attachment One

Preliminary Analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' UFO Case made
by Rex C. Salisberry on 9 September 1990.

ASSUMPTIONS:
     (1)  The object and the light ring at the bottom are
circular (source - Mccabee, 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings).
     (2)  The distance from the camera to the object is 185
(+/- 5) feet (source - Maccabee, page 145 of 1988 MUFON
Symposium Proceedings)
     (3)  The diameter of the light ring at the bottom is 7.5
feet  (source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (4)  The tilt of the object away from the observer is
about 13 degrees ( source - Dr. Willy Smith, page 14 of his "
The Gulf Breeze Saga")
     (5)  The height of the object above the road is about 3
feet
(source - Maccabee, same as #2).
     (6)  The height of the camera was about 5 feet.
     (7)  The reflection on the Flat and relatively level road
should have a round or slightly oval shape. Regardless of the
shape of the reflection, since the cross dimension of the
light is roughly equal to the cross dimension of the
reflection, fore-and-aft dimensions of the light and the
reflection should also correspond.

APPROACH:
     It seemed to be a prudent scientific approach to
determine what the reflection should appear to be under the
given assumptions and then compare that result with the
photograph.

ANALYSIS:
     (1) Since the three-dimensional appearance of the
reflection is converted to two dimensions on film, the two
dimensional presentation to the camera should be determined.
The horizontal presentation is unchanged because of the
geometry of the scene, however the height and depth
presentations are converted to a vertical only presentation as
follows:
                        5ft-> |
                              |90__________> (Angle A )
                                   185ft

Angle A = arctan 5/185 = arctan (0.027027) = 1.54815 degrees

The fore-and-aft dimension (x,) of the reflection on the road
is given by                                ^  <-7.5ft
                                /90
                              /_____________13 degrees
                                     x,
x, = (7.5 feet)/(cosine 13 degrees)= 7.6972813 feet
The vertical dimension (y,) as it would appear to the camera
is then given by
                   |
              5ft  |                ^y,
                   |                |
                   |90_______________7.6972813______>Angle A =
1.54815
                                185ft
y, = ( 7.6972813 feet)( sin 1.54815 deg.) = 0.2979574 feet =
2.49549 inches.

(2) Computation of the comparable vertical dimension from the
photo facing page 129 of Walter's book is as follows:

     The ratio of the vertical dimension to the horizontal
dimension is approximately 1 to 4 as measured on the
photograph.
     Then by proportion      Yz / 7.6972813 feet = 1/4
                  Yz = (7.6972813feet)/4 = 1.9243203 feet
which is over 9 times greater than the expected value computed
in (1)

(3) If the road surface was sloped up abruptly below the
object at an angle of about 14 degrees, the presentation of
the reflection as shown on Photo 19 could have been attained.





                              .   |
                         .        |1.9243203 feet
                   .              |
     Angle  B  <________________90|
                 7.6972813 feet

Angle B = arctan (1.9243203)/(7.7972813)= 14 degrees
(This computation is not precise but is a close enough
approximation upon which to draw a conclusion.)

Since the road is known to not have a 14 degree slope at the
point indicated in the photo, this possibility is ruled out.
However, a similar reflection to the one shown in Photo 19 was
produced by Mark Curtis for WEAR TV which indicates that the
reflection could have been made by using a small model and
double-exposure camera techniques. Mr. Curtis and his
associate made the mistake of slanting the top of their light
pipe and then covering it with thin paper to create the image
for reflection. The fatal flaw produced a similar " fat "
reflection as the one shown in Photo 19.

(4) It is possible that the camera elevation could have been
higher than the 5 feet assumed, so the camera elevation needed
to produce the photo image of the reflection is roughly
calculated by using a proportion as follows:

                    |
                 Y3 |         |< 1.9243203 feet
                    |         |
                    |_________|____________________
                                7.6972813 feet
                    |<.............185 feet.......>|

     Y3/185 feet = 1.9243203 feet/7.6972813 feet

    Y3 = (1.9243203) (185 feet)/7.6972813  = 46.25 feet

Visual inspection of photo 19 indicates that a camera
elevation of 46.25 feet was not possible.

(5) It could also be argued that the fore-and-aft dimension of
the reflection on the road could have been greater than the
approximate 7.7 feet calculated in (1) above. Therefore a
calculation of the fore-and-aft dimension needed to produce
the reflection of Photo 19 is as follows:
                   |     .
              5 ft |          | <1.9243203 feet
                   |90........|.....X2.......
                   |>            185ft     <|
        X2 = (185) ( 1.9243203feet)/5 = 71.2 feet

Again, a visual inspection of Photo 19 rules out this
possibility.

(6) Other arguments could be offered, e.g. heat from the
bottom of the UFO heated the wet road which caused steam to
rise. The reflection on the water droplets in the steam would
then cause the reflection to appear " fatter " than expected.
Such arguments employ circular logic and hence must be
discounted. Additional, the case file does not contain any
evidence to indicate that the road was subjected to heat.

(7) Anyone can perform a simple demonstration to convince
himself of the validity of the above analysis. Construct a
model of the scene using a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot as
follows:
 (1) Cut a 7.5 inch diameter circle from a piece of white
paper.
(2) Place the 7.5 inch circular piece of paper on a flat
surface to represent the reflection on the road.
(3) Move away 185 inches to simulate the distance from the
camera to the object.
(4) View the circle from an elevation of 5 inches above the
elevation of the circle as shown below ( You can cut a peep
hole 5 inches above the bottom edge of a piece of cardboard to
help in setting the proper height above the circle of paper):

               (Eye)>|
                     |5 inches
                     |____________________________()7.5inch
white disc
                            185 inches

One can then easily see that the circle appears as a thin line
and not as the "fat" reflection shown in Photo 19

Conclusions: It is virtually impossible that the object as
described in Walter's book and Maccabee's analyses could have
caused the reflection as shown in Photo 19. A small model and
double exposure camera techniques could have been used to
produce the reflection as described in (3) above.

*END OF RELEASE OF MATERIAL*
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
                         *COMMENTS*

Few UFO cases have captured the attention and interest of both
Ufologists and the general public such as the Gulf Breeze saga
has managed to do. For that reason this information is being
distributed to the public and interested parties for their
evaluation in determining their views toward case.

This information is being supplied in the interest of making
details well known locally in GULF BREEZE available to the
public at large.

The information which is included in this release is as
factual a reproduction of the material just released assuming
no errors in composition under the time restraints in getting
this information made public. Actual copies of all the reports
are available and final decisions should be based on those
documents, as necessary for supporting conjecture. However,
the presented information is as accurate a reproduction as can be
evaluated by the submitter.

10-28-90 Phillip Ray Griffin - Rainbow BBS

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Bruce Maccabee Ltr to Gulf Breeze Sent 7/5/90
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:05:07 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 277


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

  The following is a letter to the editor that was printed in the
GULF BREEZE SENTINEL on Thursday, July 5,1990.  It was written by
Bruce Maccabee in answer to a letter to the editor from Gulf
Breeze Mayor Ed Gray. I thought it might be of interest to those
who didn't make it to the MUFON Symposium.

Dear Editor:

     Ed Gray may know how to govern the town of Gulf Breeze, but
he obviously knows little about the UFO subject.

     He claims that he knew early on (over two years ago) from
"logic and common sense" that the Walters sightings were a hoax,
yet he admits that he had "no conclusive proof the sightings of
Ed Walters were fabricated." However, the lack of conclusive
proof did not prevent him from making, about two years ago, a
public statement that he believed the sightings to be a hoax. He
does not explain the "logic and common sense" that led to his
statement. However, I suspect that what he really means is that,
SO FAR AS HE KNOWS, UFOS DON'T EXIST and hence photos of them
must be fakes. If he had studied the subject more, or had paid
more attention to the reports of many of his own constituents, he
might have been less positive in his conclusion.  Perhaps he
should talk to Ken Fortenberry, the Managing Editor of the
Pensacola News Journal regrading the reality of UFOs.

     He claims that the "many other sightings by well respected
citizens," sightings which he couldn't dispute, were a result of
"the power of suggestion and the very real occurrences of so much
air traffic in our area." As experienced UFO investigators know,
this sort of explanation can account for some sightings of the
"night lights" or "daylight disc" type in which the witness'
description is vague or differs only slightly from descriptions
of conventional objects in the sky. However, this cannot explain
sightings of distinctively unusual objects with strange flight
dynamics (e.g., able to hover silently at low altitude), nor can
it explain reports of daytime or nighttime sightings, sometimes
by many witnesses at once, of structured objects which are
distinctively shaped UNLIKE conventional objects.

     Mayor Gray says that during the two years between his first
public statement and the present time he was dismayed to see the
Walters sightings being turned into a book since he knew it was a
hoax. He claims that he received numerous phone calls about the
subject and either mentioned his opinion that it was a hoax or
else he "declined to discuss it because I was fed up with the
topic." Perhaps "being fed up with the topic" prevented him
from reading any of the generally available literature on the
subject and thus informing himself about the nationwide and
worldwide occurrences of sightings by all sorts of people. If he
attends the MUFON symposium (He didn't!) he will learn how
seriously this subject is treated by scientific investigators
from around the world.

     Mayor Gray says that the first "break" came with the
discovery of the model. He attempts to explain how this discovery
came about by suggesting that Ed "miscalculated how safely buried
under insulation in his former residence's attic the model of the
UFO would be. He didn't want to chance the model being discovered
should he move it and thus left it there, or he carelessly forgot
about it since it had been several months since he had used it."

     That the Mayor should try to "rationalize" the discovery of
the model is understandable (he must have some justification for
how it happened to still exist and be found), but his
rationalization is silly. If Ed's sightings were a hoax based on
that model than he is a "genius" in carrying it off thus far. It
is hard to imagine that this genius would be so stupid as to
simply hide incriminating evidence under insulation. It is much
more likely that he would destroy it. Even Tommy Smith, the
formerly anonymous witness against Ed, realizes that (assuming Ed
hoaxed the photos) Ed would not let any incriminating evidence be
found. He states in his testimony (the truth of which is not
proven) that "Ed was pretty careful with that stuff. Anything he
was worried about he usually burned." But as Mayor Gray listened
to Mr. Smith he somehow missed this clue that Ed would have
burned any models.

     We now know that the model is not evidence against Ed. Not
only is it clearly not what appears in Ed's photos, but it didn't
even exist before September 1989, about two years after Ed's
first photos. (I don't expect the mayor to now claim that Ed made
a model in September 1989, nearly two years after his reported
sightings and than hid it in the house which he hadn't lived in
since December 1988.)

     Apparently the testimony by Tommy Smith was the "last straw"
for Gray who decided to once again, and forcefully this time,
state his position.

     Although this testimony was convincing to Gray, I have found
ten items that are discussed in the testimony which have
technical errors.  I will mention just three. I would not expect
Mayor Gray to have realized the errors in the first two of these
items, but I should think that one or both of the reporters would
have realized there was something "fishy".  On the other hand,
even the Mayor, I should think, would have questioned the third
item.

     The first items were the subject of a letter I sent on June
18th to the Pensacola News Journal. One item has to do with the
explanation of how the model was supposedly supported while Ed
photographed it.  According to Mr. Smith, and more or less as
illustrated in the PNJ (Sunday, June 17), Ed had a "tripod set up
with a flashlight pointing straight up," and sitting on the
flashlight "was part of a PVC pipe that was black and he had
it sliced at an angle, and he would tape the spaceship on top and
the flashlight would shine up and illuminate the spaceship." This
method of mounting the model would block the back side of the
"power ring" at the bottom of the model from the direct view of
the camera. Hence every one of Ed's photos, if made this way,
would show a rather wide black gap in the more distant part (the
lowest portion in the photos) of the "power ring." I suggest the
reader look at the pictures in Ed's book to see in how many cases
the complete ring is visible. The light coming up through the
pipe would directly illuminate the top of the model leaving the
bottom relatively dark (depending upon the exact size of the pipe
relative to the model), in contrast to the actual photos which
have a very bright bottom.

     The second item involves the Nimslo stereo camera. According
to Mr.  Smith, "from what he (Ed) told me, he went out and took a
picture of an airplane landing at night." This explanation is
completely contradicted by the photographic data. First, the
images recorded by the camera do not at all look like an airplane
at night. Second, the stereo effect (parallax) created by the two
outer lenses of the camera show that the photographed object was
no more that 100 ft. from the camera (the actual range estimate
is 40 to 70 feet). At that range the length of the object, as
determined by the length of the image and the camera optics, was
less than 6 feet. An airplane full of micromidget UFOnauts
perhaps? The above information on the results of the analysis of
the Nimslo photos has been available for two years in a document
published by the Fund for UFO Research entitled "A History of the
Gulf Breeze Sightings." More importantly, the size information
was immediately available to the reporters for comparison with
Smith's testimony because it is on page 301 of The Gulf Breeze
Sightings by Ed and Frances Walters. (Reporter Myers told me he
had read the book.)

     The third item is one that almost anyone who has a lawn can
understand. When asked about how Ed created the circle of dead
grass in the field behind his house, near the high school, Mr.
Smith said, "If I remember correctly, he told me that he turned a
small trampoline upside down for a while and jumped up and down
on it." This is patently ridiculous. Aside from the fact that a
13 foot diameter circle would require more than a "small
trampoline" to cover it, the grass in that circle was somehow
killed during the winter (the circle was discovered in February
1988) and remained dead for several months as the grass around
the circle turned green and grew during the spring. I have a
photograph taken in May showing the circle still brown. At the
time that the circle was found there was a suggestion that some
chemical was used to kill it, but no residue was found. One would
think that as silly an explanation as this would have at last
raised the eyebrows of all who were listening.

     What led Mr. Smith to claim, in all seriousness, apparently,
the latter two explanations for the Nimslo photos and the circle?
According to Mr. Smith, Ed TOLD him. Yet these explanations
(airplane and trampoline) CANNOT BE TRUE. Hence there must have
been fabrication on someone's part.  There are several
possibilities, two of which are: (a) Ed admitted to Smith that he
(Ed) faked the Nimslo photos and faked the circle, yet Ed lied to
Smith about how he faked them; (b) Ed told the complete truth to
Smith but Smith, for some reason, didn't tell the complete truth
to the interviewers, (c) Ed told the complete truth to Smith but
Smith forgot what Ed had told him and made up explanations on the
spot to satisfy the interviewers.

     None of these explanations for Smith's statements makes any
sense, If he didn't remember what Ed had said, why not simply
say, "I don't know." If Ed trusted Mr. Smith so explicitly as to
admit to him that he faked the Nimslo photos and the circle, then
why wouldn't Ed tell him exactly how the fakes were done? (Why
hide the true explanations from Mr. Smith who, according to
Smith, had watched Ed create double exposures fakes?) On the
other hand, if Ed told Mr. Smith how the fakes were done, then
why wouldn't Mr. Smith tell the investigators?

     There is, of course, at least one other possible reason for
why Mr.  Smith told the investigators about the "airplane and
trampoline" explanations. I suppose that the reader can imagine
what it is.

     Mr. Gray says that he wrote the published letter while "in
route back from meeting an accomplice to Ed Walters...", Hank
Boland. Hank was the only non-Walters family member mentioned by
Smith as being involved in the hoax. Hank has vehemently denied
any involvement in a hoax and instead has testified that he, too,
saw the UFO. This testimony was first recorded by the MUFON
investigators in February 1988. His testimony was "voice stress
analyzed," with no stress being found at key points in his
testimony.

     One would think, considering the gravity of this matter,
that Hank's rejection of Mr. Smith's testimony (which leaves Mr.
Smith as the only person claiming to have first hand knowledge of
the hoax) would at least give Mr. Gray some cause to question
Smith's testimony. However, it apparently didn't phase the Mayor.
He simply got around Hank's testimony by accusing him of being
one of Ed's accomplices. Furthermore he explains Hank's being
"dragged deeper into Ed Walters' ploy" as the "greed factor".
Mr. Smith had already testified that Hank was "to get all movie
or TV rights." But if this is so, where is Hank's money? (I'm
sure he'd like to know.) One would think that Hank, if he had
made a deal with Ed and Ed didn't follow through, would be
WILLING to testify against Ed.

     According to Mr. Gray, Hank was not the only accomplice;
Ed's whole family was involved. I expect that Ed's family members
will have something to say about this.

     Mr. Gray is confident that the news media will report the
fine details of how the hoax was carried off because "they must
save face in the fact that they were taken in by the scheme as
were so many others." No doubt the news media will publish all
sorts of details, including those which support Ed's testimony.

     Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON investigators for "being so
wrapped up and biased in pursuit of the story that they fell
headfirst into that trap." He is clearly not aware that this
investigator, at least, started off assuming that the photos were
faked and that the whole story was a fabrication. He could read
the last chapter in Ed's book (or even the first few pages of
that chapter) to find out how I approached the case.  The MUFON
investigation required many hundreds of man hours of analysis and
study of the photographic evidence testimony and a similarly
intensive study of Ed and his activities over a six month period
(Nov. 1987 - May 1988). The MUFON investigation included the
reports of over a hundred other witnesses in the area. Only after
all of this exhaustive effort did MUFON officially endorse the
case. By way of contrast, the Mayor relied on "logic and reason"
(unbiased, of course) and the testimony of one person, Smith (who
is contradicted by another person, Boland!)

     The mayor's "unbiased"approach comes through forcefully in
the transcript of the conversation with Mr. Smith, which has been
published by The Sentinel. At the very beginning the Mayor
thanked Mr. Smith for coming forward ("I can't tell you how much
I appreciate...you getting with us...") and then said he wanted
to "get to the bottom of this whole issue and this whole, in my
opinion, hoax." The Mayor then said "...but right now we're
trying to deal with the facts." Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON
investigators for having "no expertise at investigation." On the
other hand, the interview of Mr. Smith is not exactly a model of
good investigatory technique.

     Mr. Gray is a courageous man and a clairvoyant. He knows he
is in for an argument and he correctly predicted in his letter
that his statement would bring forth an avalanche of comments
from "Ed, his supporters, and MUFON members aimed at discrediting
not only persons who are coming forth, but me as a skeptic in the
public eye." What Mr. Gray should realize is that information
which deserves to be discredited will be discredited.  Those who
loudly proclaim discredited information will have to suffer the
consequences.

     At the beginning of his letter the Mayor says he is thankful
that he has been fortunate to serve in public office as Mayor for
the last six years. I suggest that if he wishes to remain in that
position for another six years he should stick to the city budget
and ignore the UFO controversy raging around him.

                                               s/Bruce Maccabee

-END-
--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: 4/20/89 Gulf Breeze Newsclipping
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:58:27 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 243


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Strange things are still flying around the small community
of Gulf Breeze, Florida.  Three recent articles on the subject,
published in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, are presented
below (with permission).

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Gulf Breeze Sentinel, April 20, 1989

UFO'S SIGHTED OVER GULF BREEZE, AGAIN?

WITNESS LYNN SOLEY IS A WELL KNOWN GULF BREEZE ARTIST,
AND HER HUSBAND IS A PRINTER AT PENSACOLA MAGAZINE

    "When we first saw it, it was about 10:00 p.m. Monday," said
Mrs. Lynn Soley of Breeze Street in Gulf Breeze, of an unidentified
flying object.

     "We were in the front yard. My husband spotted it in the sky
and he went in and got his binoculars.  We all took turns looking
at it. It was flashing red, yellow, green, and blue lights, with a
white light.  And then, on the upper right hand side and from time
to time, it would move down the lower right side and then over
to the lower left hand corner of the thing."

     "At one point, it turned on its side or something and the white
light was in the center with red flashing lights going around it in
a circle. Then, when we lost sight of it, we rode over to Shoreline
Park where we saw three more just like it.  Then we saw, in one
part of the sky, what looked like a big, bright star.  The funny thing
was, though, when the four UFO'S vanished, so did the big white
star. It disappeared too."

SENTINEL: How many people saw it, and can you tell us who they
were?

SOLEY:  While at Shoreline Park, we ran into a fisherman and a man
walking his dog.  They were looking at it.  We were all sharing the
binoculars.  And then very shortly, of course, came Gulf Breeze
Police and two police officers saw it.

SENTINEL:  They said they saw it, too?

SOLEY: Yes, they had our binoculars.  We shared binoculars. My
husband is a printer and the thing that amazed him about this one,
as well as the one he saw about 13 years ago, he said, was that the
colors of the lights were not like the colors we have here.  Like
the red lights were not any shade of red he had ever seen before.
And the same with the blue and the green.

     And then my brother-in-law, who we walked out to the car
with, has been in radar with the Navy ten years active duty and
twenty with the Reserves.  He said he didn't recognize it as
anything he had ever seen in the Navy, and that the lighting on
it was not like any aircraft lighting that he had seen before.

     Then Tuesday night, Joe went out to the backyard and saw
another one--just like the other four we'd seen on Monday night,
but this one didn't stay there very long.  It vanished in about
30 minutes.

SENTINEL: And where is your house?

SOLEY: On Breeze Street, off of North Sunset on the other side of
the peninsula, behind the Holiday Inn, more or less.  And the
direction the thing was going in, it must have gone right over
our house and we missed it.  It was like it was right over our
front yard and then starting veering southwest and finally,
at Shoreline Park.  When they all left at once, they went southwest.

SENTINEL: That was Monday night at what time?

SOLEY:  That was Monday night at 10:00 when we first saw it in
our front yard.  We watched it for about an hour there, then went
to Shoreline Park and it was about 1:00 in the morning when
they got so faint and all but one had disappeared and about that
time the big white light was gone too.

SENTINEL: How far away would you estimate it was when you
saw it?

SOLEY:  The first time we saw it--it's hard to say because I don't
know how big they really are--I would say it was probably over
the center part of Gulf Breeze between Shoreline and Fairpoint.
It would have been about in that general area when we first saw
it.

SENTINEL: Any sensation of noise?

SOLEY:  No, no noise at all.  It just hovered there and from time
to time they'd go up, down, or left to right, but they were
moving kind of slow.  You figure we watched them for about
three hours until they got so tiny you could barely see them
anymore, and that's when the big, bright "star" was gone too.

SENTINEL:  So, the summary is, you saw it Monday from your
home as you were going out to your car, you and your brother?

SOLEY:  Brother-in law.

SENTINEL: What's his name?

SOLEY:  Charles Higgs.  It was him, my sister and his mother--three
of them.  There were nine of us altogether that saw it.  My
brother-in-law and my sister live in Little Rock, Arkansas. I
don't know the names of the policemen or the guys we saw at
the park.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Gulf Breeze Sentinel,  May 4, 1989

SENTINEL WRITER FINALLY SEES UFO HERSELF

By Kimberly Stevenson

    Since the first report of UFO sightings over Gulf Breeze, I have
diligently watched the sky for a glimpse of these extraterrestrial
visitors.  A few times I thought I had seen somehting unusual,
but still a bit of skepticism prevailed.

     However, last week, on April 27th, a Thursday night about 9:30,
I routinely looked out my back door towards the City of Gulf
Breeze, hoping again these UFOs  would make an appearance so
that I could see them.

     I was amazed to see something different in the sky.  I walked
out on my back deck, turning off the kitchen light as I stepped
out and watched as a bright object shot at a tremendous speed
down and diagonally across the sky.  It then made a circular
pattern, then shot straight up.  The whole time it radiated colors
from it that grew in intensity from white, to blue, to green, to red.
No blinking lights just radiating colors of a nature I have never
seen.

     I have lived in this area for seven years and have watched the
sky on numberous occasions and am quite familiar with the
air traffic in the sky.  I am very familiar with aircraft of all sorts
and know what an airplane, jet, helicopter and yes, the Goodyear
Blimp look like in the sky.  I can assure you that what I saw
was not any of these.

     As I watched this object, which appeared to be right over the
area of Shoreline Park, I reached inside the house and called
an associate from work who came immediately to my house
with a friend.  I also called my neighbors next door, who came
out on their balcony and watched the object and said that they
could see two of them.  We watched the object for at least 30
minutes.  It sat in one spot for a very long time, then began to
slowly descend and move westerly, towards Perdido.  I called a
friend, Kenneth Payne in Perdido who was at work.  He went
outside with two other co-workers and they all saw the bright
object and confirmed it was moving slowly.  This was a little
after 10 p.m.

     Another young man on the beach was also watching the object
and we talked on the phone with him as he looked at it though
his binoculars; he too said he thought he saw more than one.
He was not available for an interview at the time this story was
written but will tell his story this week, along with other sightings
he had on Saturday and Monday.

     I have written several stories about other people's experiences
of UFO sightings and not always believed them, but I am sincerely
convinced now that something strange is flying over Gulf Breeze.

     Many reports of sightings have been flooding into THE SENTINEL
since last Thursday night.  A report of a sighting on Tuesday night,
May 2nd, was from a woman who wished to remain anonymous,
called saying her and her family were eating at Pizza Hut when
they saw a bright object, they left the restaurant and followed it
up Highway 98 to Shoreline Park were several people were
already there with binoculars watching it.  One gentleman she
said shared his binoculars with them.  The woman reporting
the sighting, whose son-in-law was a pilot, said he saw a shape.
It had shining red, green, and white bright lights.  The man with
the binoculars told the group that he had seen the UFO on other
occasions and when he saw it last week, it was so close and
bright, he could not continue to look at it.

     Anyone else who has had sightings recently, please contact
THE SENTINEL.  If you are still a skeptic, like I was, start watching
the sky, you might just see something that will change your mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Gulf Breeze Sentinel,   May 11, 1989

UFO SIGHTERS SEE "MOVERS AND FLASHERS"

By Kimberly Stevenson

     Since the reported sightings of unidentified flying objects on
Thursday, April 27, Carla Yoder and her neighbor Kathy Deagle
have been keeping a watchful eye on the sky.

     They were among the many people who reported the objects
that appeared over Gulf Breeze.  Now each night, they don
their binonculars and stand at the end of their street  in the
Oriole Beach area looking for the extraterrestrial visitors.

     "Now the initial shock and fear are gone.  Now it is just
curiosity," Yoder said.

     Yoder has been keeping notes and diagrams of the movement
and location of the shining lights, that radiate different colors
and appear to move in different directions each night.  They
have seen them on April 27 and 29 and also May 1, 3, 5, and 6.

     Yoder wrote in her notes, "The days in between were too
overcast and also on April 30 first noticed, looking straight up,
an object just a small white light moving steadily across the sky.
Saw this three more times on 5/5 and a shooting star. A flash
of light with a tail."

     On April 27, as they watched the objects, they also noticed a
lot of air traffic flying overhead, helicopters, prop airplanes and
jets.  The helicopters they said, appeared to be military, and
circled over the area.

     The two neighbors have come to call the objects they are seeing
"Movers and Flashers."  The movers travel steadily across the
sky and the flashers radiate color and move slowly.

    Yoder and Deagle plan to keep a vigil on the Gulf Breeze sky
hoping to get a closer glimpse of these objects. "I wish one would
come close enough for us to see what it is," Deagle said.

     "If it is something the military is doing, then I wish they would
let us know," Yoder said as she lifted her binoculars towards the
sky.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: UPI Dispatch about Gulfbreeze Sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 00:59:36 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 73


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

UFO GROUP FASCINATED BY GULF BREEZES SIGHTINGS

      02/28/88
      GULF BREEZES, FL (UPI) [Via Moseley/Saucer Smear] -- A man who took
21 photos of objects he says are flying saucers and claims he has twice
seen diminutive aliens has generated interest from a group that
investigates UFO sightings.
      Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, in Texas says the Panhandle case is
either an elaborate hoax or one of the most amazing encounters ever. The
key is "Ed," a home builder with bizarre tales of encounters he claims are
continuing.
      In the March edition of MUFON's "UFO Journal," investigators
offer one possible explanation for why Ed is privy to sightings: aliens
may have placed an implant in his head in an abduction years ago, and the
implant is now being activated.
      Hoax or not, it's garnered a lot of interest from a local weekly.
      It all began when the Gulf Breeze Sentinel on Nov. 19 published
Polaroid photos of a glowing object. The anonymous photographer claimed
they were taken Nov. 11. He said he would come forward if others saw the
same thing.
      The following week the paper published accounts from other residents
who claimed they saw a similar object, and other photos taken by two other
anonymous photographers.
      The newspaper has had nearly weekly updates ever since. This week
the paper published a four-page insert with more photos and an open letter
from "Ed." In addition to a picture purporting to show a UFO with a light
beam shining down, the insert has a drawing of a 4-foot-tall alien with
almond shaped eyes and carrying a silver wand.
      Two daily newspapers that previously ignored the sightings last week
ran stories, and a local television station had a three-part series about
Ed's sightings. The editor of the Gulf Breeze paper said he has talked to
reporters from Miami and Orlando and the National Enquirer in Lantana.
      The photographs have been scrutinized by many people who claim to be
photo experts. Some say they are the real thing, others say they are set
up. None has said how they were doctored.
      Ed's reliability is the key, and he has made some incredible claims.
      The article in the MUFON publication said it was premature to make a
judgment about the validity of the case, but does call the sightings an
"incredible UFO photographic and CE-III (Close Encounter of the Third
Kind) case."
      It describes in detail 13 alleged encounters "Ed" had. They range
from hearing a "humming" in his head to a Jan. 12 incident where he claims
he was stopped by a UFO that landed in front of his truck and saw five
aliens approaching.
      He left, in great haste.
      On several other occasions, Ed claims he was caught in a blue beam
that held him fast in place. Once it levitated him toward their craft,
then let him go for reasons unknown.
      He has also told investigators he has heard voices, telling him not
to be afraid and to stop resisting. He claims he is tipped off to the UFOs
appearance by a humming sound in his head.
      Because of the humming sound, MUFON investigators have supplied Ed
with a two-way radio so he can tell them when an experience occurs. He has
done so, but so far no investigators have seen a UFO.
      The MUFON article ventured to theorize about why Ed has been singled
out.
      "There is a possibility that Ed may have had an implant installed in
his head at some time in his life" that was only recently activated, the
article said.
      The MUFON article said it normally does not publish sighting reports
until being thoroughly investigated. But it said it was making an
exception because it is an "ongoing" case with continuing sightings.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Message Thread-Camera Ed Walters Used
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:04:02 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 290


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

(1226)  Fri 22 Jun 90 10:02
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                     Reply chain 1007  1331
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d8f3a6
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b09d1a3
 > John:  The thing that really makes me suspicious about those
 > "Shoreline Park" photos is that even though there were
 > "witnesses" in the area (Duane Cook from the Sentinel -- and his
 > wife -- and at least one other person) *noone* saw the UFO that
 > Ed photographed.  I think it was Duane who had occaision to
 > actually see the camera flash  --  without seeing *any* UFO.
 >      So we have "eyewitnesses" but what did they witnesses?  --

  We have six witnesses in addition to Ed and Frances. Duane and Dari were
driving away only to turn around and head back, while the others were for all
practical purposes *hiding* behind a restroom building.
  Ed was hiding in a clump of bushes so that anyone who wandered up wouldn't
pester him.
  Anyway, based on where the witnesses said they were, and where Ed said he
was, they couldn't see him or the ufo because their view was blocked by the
building and trees. They could, however, see the treetops above Ed.
  When he fired the flashes, they saw the flashes against the treetops. All the
witnesses said they saw the flashes light the treetops, but didn't see a ufo.
  All they actually witnessed was the film being loaded into the cameras, the
flashes going off, and then the pictures developing. That the pictures they saw
developed was the same film that was loaded into the cameras was verified.
There's no way to swap a previously-prepared filmpack for what was loaded
without resetting film counters *and* having a different serial number.
  According to the witneses, there was only a couple of minutes Ed and Frances
were alone, hence no time to hang or otherwise fiddle with models etc.
Placement of models or turning the tripod would have to be *exact* or the
stereo effect of the two cameras would give it away.
  So, although the witnesses didn't see a ufo, they do provide confirmation
that the film loaded into the cameras wasn't prepared in advance, that the
filmpacks weren't switched, that there was no time to mess with models etc.,
and that whatever appeared in the developing pictures is what Ed photographed
when he fired the cameras.
  Either that or all present were in on a hoax, and there's no evidence at all
toward that.
  If you can figure out a feasible way to hoax that incident, we're all
listening. My brain's tired. ;-)

(1239)  Sat 23 Jun 90  0:33
By: John Hicks
To: Pete Porro
Re: CAMERAS
St:                                                             Reply to 1199
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1f3c5
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b806b54
 > I read one account that Ed used a twin 35mm camera rig for the
 > paralax and pseudo stereo. I have seen references to the Nimslo
 > camera but is this in fact one of the types he used? If so it
 > gives the best effect on close photos, after about 20 feet there
 > is not much stereo effect.

  A Nimslo was in fact used. Maccabee used the images from the outer lenses as
the baseline for his parallax measurements.
  He reached the conclusion that the baseline was long enough for calcualtions
of distance out to about 20 feet, but no farther. He did calculate, though,
that the object photographed with the Nimslo was more than 20 feet away.
  As far as clear photos, I've noticed one thing in common among many of the
other folks who've taken ufo photos which show blurs and streaks.
  They usually have their cameras loaded with fairly slow film; that is, ISO
400 or slower. Also, since they don't have the foggiest idea of what a proper
exposure would be, they just leave the camera's autoexposure system set on
automatic. The camera meter "sees" all that black sky, ignores the tiny light,
and automatically gives an exposure of several seconds duration. Also, the
cameras are just about always handheld.
  The result is a large blur and/or a streak. Ed got the exact same results
with his new camera, which is a Canon A1 with a long zoom lens.
  According to Maccabee, Ed was unconciously setting an exposure of about 1/2
to 1 1/2 seconds with his old Polaroid simply by the way he was pressing and
releasing the shutter button. The shape of the Polaroid makes it fairly easy to
handhold for those durations. The pictures aren't all that incredibly sharp,
but not bad. That is, they're not as sharp as the camera is capable of.

(1312)  Sat 23 Jun 90 14:35
By: John Hicks
To: All
Re: GB pix
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dd0c57
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6b8e6706
  I have come up with a method by which Ed's pictures 36L and 36R could have
been hoaxed. There is, however, no evidence that points toward a hoax.
  I had a very long conversation with Bruce Maccabee this morning, and he
agrees that my hoax method is workable. We now have a situation in which every
one of Ed's ufo pictures could be hoaxed. Not very easily, but could be.
  I'd also discovered a factor that may have nailed an unwitting hoaxer dead,
but concrete evidence satisfied the requirements of that factor to *not* prove
a hoax.
  Recently a person has said publicly that he helped Ed hoax pictures, and the
person has, at least privately, shown some ufo pictures. Maccabee said he has
some of the pictures. He said that he has disproved the hoax method described
by the person on eight technical points. In other words, the pictures the
person presented *could not* have been hoaxed the way the person said they
were.
  We're then forced to conclude that the pictures are real, and that the person
is sustaining a lie he told two years ago. To clarify, the person apparently
took real pictures and then lied that they were fake, for personal reasons.

(1518)  Mon 25 Jun 90  1:27
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: CAMERAS
St:                                                             Reply to 1514
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1b217
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8111f6
 > re:  The "Nimslo Object" (or "NO UFO")  -- don't forget to point
 > out that Maccabee calculated this object to be approximately 2.5
 > feet in diameter.

  Don't forget that the same object appeared later in an SRS camera pair, and
the size matched up within a reasonable amount. The parallax calculations also
showed that the object was *no more* than about 40 feet away. The object was
close enough to show parallax.
  Can you explain how a model (or whatever) could have been moved so precisely
that the size was consistent in two different stereo photo pairs?
  The only way to hoax it I can think of is to suspend the model in a dark room
at least 20 feet long and photograph it, then do that again with the SRS rig.

 >  Of course, if this were any other case, such
 > a finding would spell the end of it, since most people would cry
 > "Model!".

  Do you know the acceptable size range of ufos? If you do, please tell us how
you came by this information.

 > But ... since this is the sacred Gulf Breeze case we must all
 > "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"    --  John

  There's at least a few of us paying a hell of a lot more attention than you
realize.
  I've enlarged the hoax possibility to include *all* of Ed's pictures, and
that's on a provable, demonstrable technical basis, while previously they were
all hoaxable except for one pair. However, all I've proven is that it's
*possible* that the pictures were hoaxed, and that at least one possible hoax
method is known for *each* picture.
  Neither I, nor anyone else, has *proven* a hoax. Until that happens, the
possibility that Ed's pictures are true ufo pictures as claimed *cannot be
dismissed*.
  If you read Bruce Maccabee's analysis, if you hear him speak, or if you talk
with him on the phone, he says (and has said all along) that a hoax is a
possibility, but no one's been able to prove it.
  In the absence of proof of a hoax, you need to proceed as if the pictures are
real, while continuing to look for evidence of a hoax.
  Now, I'm certainly not trying to start any kind of battle over this stuff.
You may notice that in one sentence I may be saying something that supports
Ed's case while in the next sentence I'm chipping away at it. I had something a
couple of days ago that would have proven a hoax beyond a shadow of a doubt,
concrete proof, if certain numbers hadn't matched up, but it turns out they
match up perfectly. The reason the numbers were so important is that *none of
the investigators knew what they meant*.
  If I come up with solid, undebatable proof of a hoax, you'll most likely read
about it right here first. The same will happen if I come up with the same sort
of proof that they're real.
  BTW, I know I sound sorta proud of my hoax possibility theory. I am. Only
took me about two months to think it up, when it should have been obvious right
away. ;-)

(1519)  Mon 25 Jun 90  1:29
By: John Hicks
To: John Burke
Re: Re: Ed Walters
St:                                                     Reply chain 1334  1520
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01d1b21b
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c81761f
 > re: >Also that the father and son are anonymous.
 > That's not true.  The father and son have been on the local TV
 > station (WEAR?).  The father is a GB lawyer who is on the City
 > Council.  They have polaroids that were taken with Ed's camera
 > of the same models that appear in Ed's Book.     --  John

  You are correct. While they were a very short time ago anonymous phone
callers, they aren't anonymous any more.
  Bruce Maccabee told me that he has proven on *eight technical points* that
the photos could not possibly have been faked in the manner the young man
claims. Since this would be independently verifiable, I take Maccabee's word
for it.

(1524)  Mon 25 Jun 90 13:33
By: John Hicks
To: Jim Delton
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                     Reply chain 1517  1525
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dc2586
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d29ce
 > Why was Ed using a Flash to take photos of something flying in
 > the sky??

  Maccabee found that Ed was unconciously setting a shutter speed of around one
second with his first Polaroid. Actually, what happens is that the camera will
autoexpose until it reaches the limit of its dim-light range, then the shutter
will simply stay open until you let go of the shutter button.
  Ed was doing the very common thing of giving the shutter button a real good
press, for whatever reason most snapshooters do.
  As for flash, consider all the people who use their little cameras with their
little flashes at, for instance, a night football game. They don't know any
better.
  In the original Polaroid, the flash isn't linked to the camera in any way
except for the firing connection; that is, it doesn't affect any other camera
operations.
  If you see the originals, they're all actually extremely dark, as if they're
underexposed by several stops.
   As for the second Polaroid type (Sun 600), you get the flash whether you
want it or not. It's built-in, and if the camera meter determines flash is
needed, it fires the flash. No choice in the matter.
   Also, the shutter speed is limited to a minimum speed; probably about 1/15
second. Maccabee told me, but I forgot exactly what it was.
   The pictures taken with the Sun 600 cameras are much darker than the
original series of Polaroids, which is consistent with a limited minimum
shutter speed but somewhat faster film.
  The "light-blasting" technique used for the pictures in the book consists of
holding the original print up to direct sunlight and photographing it. Works
sorta like a transparency, in that detail that's almost lost in the dark is
brought out. Unfortunately, this extreme lightening of the images mostly so
they could be reproduced in the book has given a false impression of how the
pictures look. They're really very dark.
  As for the Nimslo, the images of the lights, whatever they are, are actually
quite sharp and very small. They do, however, show parallax. That indicates
that the object was not so far away that the parallax would be unmeasurable. If
the object was, say, 500 feet away the amount of parallax would probably be
less than the size of the film grain or the resolving power of the lens/film
combination. That is, it would be unmeasurable.
  The baseline (distance between the outer lenses) of the Nimslo wasn't large
enough for accurate measurements for an object farther than about 20 feet away.
You could clearly prove, for instance, that an object was between, say 30 and
60 feet away, but you couldn't measure more accurately than that.
  Thus the SRS.
  Maccabee said he was musing aloud about how to make a stereo camera with a
significantly larger baseline, and that Ed surprised him by building one. The
first version had the wiggles, so it couldn't really be used, but the second
version was much more stable. However, the stick (which made it self-
referencing) still had the wiggles so had to be discounted.
  The concept was great, but the execution left a little to be desired.
  Anyway, Ed did get a shot of the Nimslo object in the same frame pair with
another object with the second version of the SRS. Its size for the calculated
distance was consistent with the frame pair from the Nimslo.

                              *continued*

(1525)  Mon 25 Jun 90 13:39
By: John Hicks
To: Jim Delton
Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze
St:                                                             Reply to 1524
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:116b 01dc258a
@MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d8e52
  As for why not giving Ed a sealed 35mm camera for all the shots. The
explanation was that no one had (or was willing) to, for all practical
purposes, give away a personal camera that they owned. The Nimslo was
previously obtained for $25 from a  camera store by an investigator who thought
there might eventually be some use for the thing.
  It's not the camera I'd have picked for the purpose. A Stereo Realist is a
much more accurate camera with a much wider baseline, but then we're talking
about buying a camera for about $200 for one in good condition, and giving it
to someone for an unknown length of time.
  Would you be willing to do that?
  Also, there are problems with both these cameras. The Nimslo is designed to
provide four images to be used in a proprietary process that produces
lenticular 3D prints, similar to 3D postcards. The Stereo Realist is designed
to duplicate the baseline of the human eyes and provide a stereo pair of slides
to be viewed in a viewer, like the old viewers which showed 3D views using a
disc of transparencies.
  In any event, they don't have a larger baseline than human vision, and that
simply isn't large enough.

                                           jbh

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: Paranet NU-DELTA(sm) Orlando, Fla. [phone] (1:363/29)
--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Articles by Ware, Duane Cook, Editor
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:00:29 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 204


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following brief articles appeared in the November 10, 1988
issue of The Sentinel, Gulf Breeze, Florida.  This issue discusses
some of the highlights of the UFO sightings that have
occurred in the area over the past year.  The first article is by the
primary photographer "Ed".  Others are written by: Donald Ware,
Florida state MUFON director; and Duane Cook, editor of The
Sentinel.  The articles are reproduced here with the permission
of The Sentinel.

------------------------------------------------------------------

ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S
ANNIVERSARY

     On Nov. 11, 1987, as I opened the front door and stared at the
glowing object partly obscured by several pine trees, I stepped
into a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs.  A
phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here
at home by dozens of our fellow residents.  This reality may be
hard to accept for those who have not had a sighting, so I do not
try to convince or persuade.  I have only reported my personal
sightings and incidents as they happened.

     The resulting photographs and video tape I took of the UFO
have been validated by computer imaging (Dr. Maccabee, physicist
with the U.S. Navy).  And, of course, there are otheres who feel
differently and offer little other than opinions.

     When I was asked to use a 4 lens Nimslo 3-D sealed camera,
I did.  When I was asked to use the SRS (Self Referencing Stereo)
camera, I did.  The technical analysis of these photographs
produced page after page of data with the end result detailing an
object 14 foot in diameter at the bottom ring and 475 feet distant.

     The accusation of hoax came fast from those unable to say
"maybe", and I was asked to take a lie detector test.  Again the
ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test.

     As the controversy swirled, I began to hear preposterous tales
being spread by the debunkers about devil parties and "ultimate
pranks," etc.  Those of you who know me will certainly laugh at
such claims, but the object was to discredit me in the eyes of those
who don't know me.  There was a very serious attempt  to destroy
my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances.
Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of
town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me.
Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors.

     Some of you may remember the front page headline "Expert
says Photos a Hoax."  The next day the "expert" publicly retracted
his claim and apologized.  A counterintelligence agency in
Maryland was given an audio tape of me being interviewed.  The
resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress
Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner
said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner
to doubt his (Ed's) answers."

     Soon I began to understand that no matter how many tests I
was subjected to and how many times the photographs were
analyzed, I was still open game for the out of town media and
clearly a target to be ridiculed by the out of town debunkers.
Many distant newspapers and TV crews played "hide and seek"
with reporting the accurate details, and several times I have
been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name.

     The official MUFON investigation was even infiltrated early
by a debunker who took a liquid sample suspected to have fallen
from the UFO for analysis only to issue a false report.  Later the
sample was analyzed by an independant lab with startling results.
The debunker was exposed and fired in discredit.  Another
debunker from Central Florida has recently been exposed and is
now being ignored by serious researchers.

     From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been
stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive
and negative, continued to build in the media.  The most
troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so
many sightings?"  I can not explain the "why" questions, the most
disturbing one being, "Why Me?"

     In an effort to understand, I have undergone a battery of
pshchological profile tests followed by six hours of regressive
hypnosis.  The details of the hypnosis indicate previous encounters
as far back as 11 years of age.  I was the first to shake my head
in confusion but have come to the adjustment that life goes on--
even life we may not understand.

     Thanks to all those who have stood up and reported what they
saw.  Thank you, Gulf Breeze for being a good neighbor.

------------------------------------------------------------------

GULF BREEZE UFO FROM THE INVESTIGATIVE PERSPECTIVE

                 BY DONALD M. WARE

     During the past year, many residents in and around Gulf Breeze,
FL have been part of a unique experience in this country.  Over
a hundred people reported objects that we could not identify as
planes, planets, flares, etc..  Some reported seeing alien beings,
and six reported blue beams coming from the UFO.  One respected
Gulf Breeze family had 22 encounters with UFOs, including 18
separate photographic sessions.  These sessions produced 41
photographs of at least five different types of flying objects.  Five
different cameras were used providing sufficient data to determine
the size of some objects.  For example, one object photographed
on 1 May 1988 was 14.8 (misprint?) feet high and had a light on
the bottom that was 14.8 feet in diameter.  I have seen over
60 photos of UFOs from this area.

     Investigations by Newspapers, TV and the Mutual UFO Network
were generally accomplished without ridicule.  This encouraged
12 people to tell of their UFO experiences that involved "missing
time" or extremely strange dreams.  Some of these people are
having trouble coping with their experiences. MUFON established
a support group including abductees, investigators, and a clinical
psychologist to help reduce fear of the unknown.  I think the
support efforts, including time-regression hypnosis, have helped
several who seem to have been inside a UFO understand their
strange experiences.

     I suspect that the increasing national media coverage of the
UFO phenomenon, spurred by the Gulf Breeze photos and sightings
will cause many more abductees to gain the courage to talk about
their experiences.  Perhaps some will seek help in understanding
what happened to them.  I hope investigators and psychologists
across the country will work together to provide this help.

     Some people have been unable to fully accept the reality of
alien visitors, including some "armchair investigators."  Perhaps
the Gulf Breeze photos will help people across the country accept
the reality described in the MJ-12 documents and other government
disclosures.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TO CELEBRATE OR NOT TO CELEBRATE

           BY DUANE COOK

     How do you celebrate the anniversary of an event you are
not yet sure was good?

     Well, maybe celebrate is not the appropriate term.

     Perhaps reminisce is a better word to apply to our thoughts
and activities on this 1st anniversary of the now famous UFO
sightings by "Ed" and others in and around Gulf Breeze.

     Initially we had no idea that printing Ed's photos would cause
such a worldwide interest in our fair community.

     First, there were the wire services that broke the news
worldwide with a brief account of the first sightings.

     Then came the National Enquirer with their offer to pay for
the right to print the photos if NASA Scientists found them
genuine.

     MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) got involved in the investigation
early and became the authority to which the explosion of local
sightings were referred.

     Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist under contract with
the Navy, did the most extensive research on the Gulf Breeze
sightings and photographs and has pronounced theEd lives here and they (the UFOs) just followed
him here to continue their interaction with him as they have done
at eight year intervals since he was a child?

     And what about the many other sightings we've had?  Is it just
coincidence that Charlie and Doris saw the same craft on the same
night that Ed photographed it, thus assuring the Sentinel's
unflinching support while maintaining its unquestioned credibility?

     Then there are the ministers, the teachers, the law enforcement
officers, the district medical examiner and his wife, and even a city
council member.

     Were these people just randomly in the right place at the
right time, or is there an intelligent plan guiding the selection of
who sees it and who doesn't?

     Whether we call it a celebration, a reminiscence, or a review,
we all found it amazing that it's already been a whole year since it
all started.

     And we wanted to share with you our thoughts and reflections
on this most interesting year.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Reports by several others also appeared in this issue of
The Sentinel but are not presented here.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Letter to Citizens of Gulfbreeze-Bob Oechsler
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:01:25 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 105


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following letter from UFO investigator Bob Oechsler appeared
in the May 12, 1988 issue of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel.

Reprinted by permission
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"An Open Letter to the Citizens of Gulf Breeze"

Dear Gulf Breeze Citizenry:
     For those who don't know me or my contributions to the
investigation of UFO related activity in Gulf Breeze, I am a UFO
Investigator/Reporter from the Annapolis, Maryland area.  My
involvement in your local sightings case has been quite extensive
with well over 100 hours of research and telephone interviews
with investigators, witnesses, photographers, meteorologists, path-
ologists, technologists and the media.  I've been reporting the events
on radio in Baltimore and have included "live" interviews with Ed,
Duane Cook and others.  I have battled the skeptics and have
reported my findings to the UFO Intelligence Community.  During
this period of time, I have had to investigate numerous sightings of
UFO activity in the Annapolis Bay Bridge area which has served to
limit my otherwise total involvement in the Gulf Breeze Sightings.
     Please be assured that not all "distant experts" are scientifically
critical of the extraordinary events that have been occuring in your
peninsula city.  Before getting too far into this letter, allow me to set
the record straight on one issue of significance to no one by myself.
Mr. R--- S-------  is not a resident of Annapolis, Maryland.  You
remember RS, the author of a report with a Strange Breeze blowing
through his head whose Psychic Premonitions lead him to believe
that The Sightings were all an elaborate hoax.  Mr. RS resides and
receives his mail in College Park, Maryland, some 35 miles from the
quaint little peninsula capitol of the state of Maryland which so
happens to be the city where I call home.  And so now you see the
reason for my interest in setting the record straight.
     It should be noted that statistically speaking, there are now on
record over 50 sightings of UFO activity in the Gulf Breeze area that
have no connection to the noted photographer Ed.  There are now
on record five photographers of UFO's only one of which has not
been in direct contact with MUFON investigators.  There is now re-
ported to be a second video tape of a moving and hovering UFO;
the photographer is in no way related to Ed.  And, there are over
100 witnesses of sightings who have asked to file reports, with
some accounts involving five and six witnesses.
      Remember the "Jan Tide" with the funny looking blimp of
radar equipment floating about in Pensacola Bay that was suppose
to leave in late January or early February?  Well you may have
noticed that it is still there over 90 days later. And, in case no one
has noticed, there is now a similar companion vessel out there
with the insignia NASA on the side.  Let's also not forget about that
cute little Army vehicle with the 150-foot telescoping RADAR
globe that had to be moved out of Ft. Pickens due to excessive
curiosity of visitors.  A civilian employee of Pensacola NAS has
reported that there are now 18 of those RADAR vehicles operating
in the Gulf Breeze area.
     What does all of this mean?  We're checking the records, but
it is doubtful that there has been a significant increase in drug
smuggling activity in the area.  Why has the Network News Media
taken such a hands-off approach to reporting these events outside
of the Pensacola area?  Is there Government INTEREST in this case
of UFO activity?  Is the Government turning some subtle screws to
clamp down on exposing what's really happening here?  If so,
WHY?  The answer may lie somewhere in the MJ-12 documents
that I've enclosed with this letter.  These documents have been
available for over a year now, and have been widely published in
their entirety in (among others) The Danville Newspapers in
Pennsylvania and at least one major newsletter out of Cranston,
Rhode Island.  Experts who have researched these documents
thoroughly say they are authentic.  A memo from President
Truman makes direct reference to the MJ-12 operation.  There
is more, much more, but this should be enough to encourage any
doubters out there that UFO's are REAL.  Their purpose is now
fundamentally known.  We may be powerless to stop it, although
some experts feel otherwise.
     A letter to the President of the United States was mailed today
along with correspondence to several members of congress and
the Senate.  The purpose is to seek official help in matters related
to the Gulf Breeze Sightings.  Matters that involve the purpose
behind the visitations.  Help is very much needed here.  Although
exceptionally competent as I stated in my report to the UFO
Intelligence Community on April 21, 1988, there are but less than
a handful of part-time qualified investigators available in the
area to handle the massive workload.  Scientific monitoring and
evaluation by civilian technologists is all but vacant here, except
for the exhaustive efforts of Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D.  The
reassuring hand of Budd Hopkins has been quite welcome therapy
for those in need, but it is not nearly enough.
     Will help be on the way?  We'll keep you posted as the gears
and cogs of our bureaucracy oil up for action.  The critics and
skeptics will not be able to sweep this intrusion under the carpet
with the guise of a hoax for long.  Our prayers are with you and
all whose lives have been changed forever.

Bob Oechsler
UFO Investigator/Reporter

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Statement from Bob Oechsler re Gulfbreeze
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:02:10 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 196


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The follow are two reports by UFO investigator/researcher
Bob Oechsler, from Annapolis, Maryland.  They provide insights
and technical information relating to the Gulf Breeze, Florida UFO
phenomena.  The reports were received 9/22/88.

DBC

---------------------------------------------------------------------


THE GULF BREEZE PHOTOGRAPHIC SIGHTINGS CASE AS VIEWED
FROM WITHIN THE INVESTIGATION

     One of the most often asked questions by investigators unfamiliar
with the Gulf Breeze Case is to provide the single most compelling
piece of evidence that proves the case valid.

     In the final analysis of the Gulf Breeze UFO photographic sightings
case, it's not the photographs or the 8 mm home video of the flying
UFO, or the landing site or any one particular sighting or piece of
physical evidence that makes this case authentic.

     It's the people behind the story that make this case believable in
spite of it's incredibility.  The UFO phenomenon is rich in a foundation
of historical documentation.  This case has a certain uniqueness with
no precedence in the literature.  It has challenged the investigation
team right to the core of their individual areas of expertise.

     Putting the case in perspective, however, has been an even greater
challenge.  There probably can be no singly conclusive piece of the
puzzle that would validate the case.  Given adequate resources
someone probably could closely duplicate the photographic evidence.
Missing, however, is any evidence that any of the principals in this
case involving six months of active UFO sightings has the technological
background, resources or ability to duplicate the evidence.

     So we must ultimately evaluate the human factors in which we
are on firmer ground.  We must ask ourselves can more than 135
witnesses be lying about what they saw, is it possible that a dozen
well trained investigators and professionals be so naive and
incompetent as to allow even a sophisticated hoax to go undetected
under their very eyes for half a year.  Are at least nine victims of
missing time collectively hallucinating, and how can we deny the
concerns of a mother whose three year old daughter has since last
summer reported ghosts in her room, ghosts with big black eyes,
who take her away and bring her back.  And upon seeing photos of
the UFOs the child told her mother that she'd seen that and had
been in it!

     The evaluatable evidence in this case is abundant and available
for close scrutiny.  It is imperative to note that no specialist to date
has been capable of duplicating even one single piece of the evidence,
and I've personally witnessed a number of such attempts.  One day
someone will inevitably duplicate some of the evidence as will we
one day be capable of duplicating the technology many have
witnessed this year.  But for now we must consider, has an alien
culture from the stars initiated a long awaited Glasnost Policy of their
own.  If indeed that is the case, what will it mean to our society and
the rest of the peoples of the Planet Earth in the years to come!


Broadcast Reporter

Bob Oechsler
Investigator/Researcher
Annapolis, Maryland

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

INVESTIGATIVE ANALYSIS


     The photographic and video taped evidence in the Gulf Breeze
case was brought to my attention approximately two months after
the first reported sightings of UFO activity on November 11th of
1987.  An exhaustive series of polygraph tests were conducted on
the primary photographer in the case, one of five known to the
investigative staff.  It seemed pertinent under the circumstances
that additional methods be employed to verify the veracity of the
witnesses.  Following a background check of the primary
photographer with his verbal permission, various investigation
interviews were subjected to Voice Stress Analysis using state of
the art Psychological Stress Evaluator equipment operated by one
of the nation's top expert analysts.  There were no reactions in the
analysis that would indicate that any of the three witnesses
interviewed were telling anything short of the truth about what
they observed.

     Meteorologic and Site Survey analyses were performed as a
check against the details reported for the first photographic sighting.
The conclusion verified that the photographs were likely to have
been taken on the day and time period reported as no other similar
conditions existed over a two week period prior to publication
of the photographs.

     An investigation into the photographic equipment used was
conducted through field tests and close consultation with Polaroid
Corporation engineers.  It was determined that the camera used
through February 7th could perform double exposure techniques
with the 108 type film.  Investigators provided the witness with a
35mm Nimslo stereo camera and employed controls that were not
subsequently breached as determined following inspection of the
camera and film after a photographic sighting.  A more sophisticated
Polaroid Sun 600 camera was purchased on March 7th.  The following
day the camera was first used during a photographic sighting
opportunity.  It was determined by the Polaroid engineers that a
double exposure was possible but extremely difficult to effect.  On
March 17th a second Polaroid Sun 600 camera was combined with
the first in a stereo array to create a parallax for measuring the
distance and size of objects by comparing two photographs taken
simultaneously.  The degree of difficulty in a double exposure had
now increased beyond reasonable proportions.  The final piece of
equipment used was a Sony 8mm home video camera with sound
and without zoom capability.  A one minute and thirty eight second
two part video tape was shot on December 28th.

     An extensive analysis of the two part video tape was started in
March and continues today.  Various enhancement techniques were
performed at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center.  Among those tests
a variable speed element was employed to make tapes for viewing
the entire tape at one tenth speed.  A Sony Video Editor model
BVU820 was used with a digital time base corrector to supply a direct
signal to a Video Hard Copy Unit made by Tektronix, model 4632.
The thermal printer generated photo images of both phases of each
frame.  A ten second portion of the video tape requires 600 single
copy prints.  Each print is measured to define altitude, flight path,
rotation characteristics, frequency of beacon lights, ring aberrations,
attitude in flight, air speed/velocity, acceleration/deceleration
and an analysis of direction reversals.  A preliminary analysis of the
audio track indicated that no sound could be identified with the
object.  More sophisticated equipment is being sought.  A preliminary
analysis concludes that the object observed in the video tape closely
resembles objects photographed with the Polaroid cameras.  The
object has a clockwise or left to right rotation.  The dome or beacon
light blinks on and off at no consistent rate or pattern and displays a
variable luminosity with each cycle.  The object loses altitude moving
to the left of the camera just prior to blinking out.  A ghost image
appears in the first phase of the next frame approximately two object
widths to the right that may be related but is apparently not visible
through the transmission medium.  There are certain restrictions in
the evaluation of the video tape.  Due to the horizontal resolution
lines, we are viewing the object through what is analogous to jail bars
turned sideways.  Nonetheless it appears conclusive that the
bottom or power source light has a variable luminosity characteristic
which is not synchronic with the beacon light on top of the object.

     As an experienced robotics technician I've built many remote
controlled devices in the past ten years.  As a prototype designer
I am well versed in exotic techniques used to operate various
sizes of apparatus from very small to very large using sometimes
inexpensive semi-automated frequency controlled equipment.
The specifications detailed in this case, most notably the absence of
audible sound from the UFO craft in the 8mm home video and the
rotational characteristic, create enormous difficulty when an attempt
is made to re-create what is observed by constructing a model to
examine the technology.

     Further research is continuing in many areas relating to this
photographic sightings case.  It is quite clear to this investigator that
we are examining a truly anomalous technology.

     On May 9th, 1988, I initiated an official appeal for assistance
through the Office of the President of the United States and various
members of the Sanate and House of Representatives.  Government
or at least military interest in the events that were occurring in
Gulf Breeze, Florida was quite apparent in light of newspaper
reports bearing photographs of vessels with elaborate radar gear,
military vehicles with telescoping radar gear (all deployed in the
vicinity of the sightings) and a reported visit to the primary
photographer's residence by purported officials requesting original
photographic materials.  Responses received from the Office of the
Secretary of the Navy revealed concern over evidence of federal
airspace rules violations, responses from congressional representation
revealed concern over human rights violations.  The Office of the
Chief of Naval Operations (Air Warfare) ultimately declined to
investigate citing scarce Navy financial and personnel resources.
It might be interesting to note that in a civilian capacity, Navy
physicist, Dr. Bruce S. Maccabee conducted an extensive photo
analysis of the evidence and found no evidence contrary to the
existence of anomalous objects in the photographs.


Bob Oechsler
UFO Investigator, Researcher, Broadcast Reporter
Annapolis, Maryland

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Film Crew Watch UFO In Gulf Breeze, FL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:03:07 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 59


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

                   MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                   News-Wire
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: 01-30-91  22:27

  From the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, by Bruce Morrison.

ABC JOINS LOCAL UFO SKY WATCH

  The Los Angeles based production company, Ohlmeyer Productions, working on
the ABC special, "America's Best-Kept Secrets," joined a local UFO sky watch
on Friday night, January 11, 1991, and filmed the frequently-seen "red light"
over Gulf Breeze.

  The cameraman, Ron Ladd, said, "It was a long distance away illuminating
the clouds and traveling very slowly to the east. It just appeared from within
the clouds and after a minute or so it disappeared. I caught it on film. It
was sometimes very bright and then would fade, maybe because of the clouds."

  An earlier witness Jeff Lawrence said, "What we saw on November 11, 1990
looked like the UFO that Ed Walters photographed three years ago. I know what
we saw."

  Eight local area residents were also present during the sighting along with
the production company's producer, Jeff Androski, and former NASA systems
specialist Robert Oechsler. Mr. Oechsler was the first to see the glow of the
UFO as it appeared beneath the clouds.

  Mr. Oechsler is here on assignment from Washington and is an expert in
remote controlled mechanics and photo analysis. He was equipped with infrared
film to photograph the unidentified red object and said, "I have tried to
consider all the options to this Gulf Breeze mystery. I would like to explain
it away as a military aircraft, balloons, flares, temperature inversions, or
hoax, but none of these options hold up under scientific study. Balloons don't
travel opposite the wind, flares don't change color or hover motionless and I
can assure you that what I saw and filmed over Gulf Breeze was not an airplane
of helicopter.

  I have designed some very sophisticated remote control systems but
duplicating the soundless flight and brightness of this unknown object would
be next to impossible. I can only say that I don't know what it is."

  The ABC special will air in February. One segment will present information
about the mysterious grass circles in Gulf Breeze Shoreline Park along with
the unidentified flying red object that dozens of local residents continue to
photograph.
=END=

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Recap Of Gulf Breeze, Florida Sightings/Ed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:06:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 345


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

(628)   Wed 6 Jun 90 22:49
By: Jim Speiser
To: All
Re: Gulf Breeze at NUFOC 1/5
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@EID:09ff 14c6b620
@MSGID: 1:114/37 6316d312
The following article was submitted by ParaNet Sysop John Hicks, and will also
be circulated as the file NUFOC90.TXT. Copyright (c) 1990 John Hicks and
ParaNet.


                  The Gulf Breeze mystery continues



by John B. Hicks

  The Gulf Breeze sightings have generated huge amounts of public
speculation, scientific bickering and dirty tricks. However, many people
in the Pensacola, Florida, area still see odd objects and lights in the
sky.
  The recent publication of The Gulf Breeze Sightings by Ed and Frances
Walters has, if anything, fanned the flames.
  "If you took that case, Ed's sightings and those of his family away, and
left everything else, you would still have a monumental amount of evidence
related to the UFO mystery," Dr. Bruce Maccabee said. "Between Nov. 11,
1987 and May 1, 1988, which is the time taken up by Ed's book, the time
that involved Ed Walters and Frances, I estimate that there were about 60
events which involved well over 130 witnesses in the Gulf Breeze area."
  Maccabee is a physicist employed by the U.S. Navy and a well-respected
UFO investigator.
  According to Maccabee, about 65 sightings have occured in the Pensacola
area since May, 1988.
  "I'm basing my statistics on cases that have been reported to MUFON," he
said.
  MUFON is the Mutual UFO Network, a large organization of UFO researchers,
investigators and enthusiasts.
  MUFON investigators Rex and Carol Salisbury have documented many UFO
sightings and contacts in the Pensacola area going back many years.
They made the following comments to the 1990 National
UFO Conference in Miami Beach, Florida. In the interest of clarity, since
they alternated speaking, I will quote the Salisburys as a team, rather
than individually.
  "There have been sightings all around the town (of Pensacola)," they
said. "Another area of intense activity is up around the university area."
  They said that the most of the witnesses they interviewed have had
multiple sightings.
  "We have also discovered that many of these witnesses have also had
missing time or other related UFO paranormal events or other types of
ESP events in their lives," the Salisburys said. "These witnesses come from
all walks of life, and they have seen a wide variety of UFO types, shapes
and sizes."
  On February 8, 1989, Jeff Thompson and his young son watched as a
brightly lighted object of about three feet in diameter landed in their
front yard. Thompson crept close to the object and illuminated it with a
flashlight.
  "The object suddenly emitted a bright, brilliant flash of light and
disappeared," the Salisburys said. "Upon questioning Jeff, we learned that
Jeff knew nothing at all of a previously-taken photo of a very small
craft."
  "In March of 1989 we interviewed a family who has had multiple sightings
and experiences over a two-year period in Pensacola, and as far back as 10
years ago when the honeymooning couple saw a UFO hovering over a mountain
in Pennsylvania," the Salisburys said. "Another family residing in the same
area has had a number of sightings dating back two or three years."
  The two families did not know each other.
  The Salisburys said that they have worked on several cases in an area
near a Navy installation. The cases involve witnesses who have had multiple
sightings and past experiences with UFO and related phenomena, some going
back into the 1920s.
  One witness is a 71-year-old woman who recently saw her back yard
flooded with light. She underwent hypnosis and learned that she had also
seen a bowtie-shaped object and a second light.
  "Her first experience was in 1925," the Salisburys said.
  In another experience about seven years ago, according to the Salisburys,
a young woman babysitting was sleeping on a couch when a noise awakened
her and the house shook. She saw a translucent hemispherical
object in the living room with her.
  The woman slipped into a bedroom to check the baby. While she was out
of the living room, there was another noise, the house again shook and the
object disappeared.
  She told the Salisburys that she looked out a window and saw three
orange balls streaking away across the yard and into the sky.
  In March of 1989 two women were driving home (to the mainland) from Gulf
Breeze when they noticed a white light that appeared to be pacing their
car. When they rounded a curve, they saw an object hovering over the road
in front of the car.
  The women stopped, got out of the car, and felt compelled to walk
toward the object. They bumped into the open car doors and stopped. When a car
approached, the object lifted straight up and vanished.
  A Pensacola-area woman who said a UFO abducted her in Germany 16 years ago
saw a UFO west of Pensacola in August of 1989. She told the Salisburys that
the UFO was identical to what she saw in Germany.
  In September, the same woman and her son saw two objects hover over their
house. Twenty similar sightings have occured in their area since then, and
the latest was in April 1990.
  On Nov. 30, 1989, a woman driving east from Gulf Breeze saw an
arrowhead-shaped object hover over a utility substation.
  In February of 1990 MUFON received 26 sighting reports, and in March the
organization received nine sighting reports.
  A large number of UFOs returned to Gulf Breeze in mid-April 1990.
  "We had sightings of lights almost every night for about a week," the
Salisburys said. At least two witnesses made videotapes of those objects.
  "Pensacola MUFON has submitted over 64 cases," the Salisburys said.
  On the night of Nov. 11, 1987, Ed Walters, a Gulf Breeze builder, saw and
photographed his first UFO. What set Walters apart from the other witnesses
was that he had a camera readily accessible, is what would be politely
described as stubborn, and had what could be called good luck as a UFO
photographer.
  Walters was not alone in his UFO sightings that day.
  In the decade up until Nov. 11, 1987, witnesses reported about 10
sightings a year.
  "All of a sudden, on that one day, we find out that there were eight or
nine sightings," Maccabee said. Other witnesses saw objects
similar to the one Walters saw beginning at about 2:30 that morning.
  I will not recount Ed and Frances Walters' story here, since they do so
in great detail in their book. Nor will I recount Dr. Bruce Maccabee's
analysis of Ed and Frances Walters' photographs, since he does so in the
paper he presented to MUFON.
  Since that Veterans' Day in 1987, Ed Walters has taken 41 pictures of
possibly four different objects with five cameras. He has come under
fire that his photographs were a hoax, possibly because they appeared
too sharp and clear. Many other people took pictures before, during and
after the period of his sightings, and several witnesses made videotapes.
Walters made a videotape during one of his close encounters.
  Critics bandied about hoax and conspiracy theories.
  "You can't say there wasn't a conspiracy, but you can't establish a
connection," Maccabee said. Also it appears that a large number of people
would have to be in on a conspiracy.
  Maccabee examined several possible methods of hoaxing the photographs in
his paper and found each to be either readily detectable or impossible to
carry out. He also determined that Ed Walters would not have had the
knowledge or equipment to carry out a hoax.
  "You're going to do something to destroy your roots?" Walters said. "Some
would do something like that, but not a normal sane father."
  I described to Maccabee a method that could be used to hoax
photographs that would pass most, if not all, of the tests he used to
examine Walters' photographs. He was not familiar with the material and
methods I described. He then pointed out that the events of the March
17, 1988 sighting and photographs would have precluded any manipulation of
photographs by Walters.
  Maccabee said that on that date, a witness (Peter Newman) opened the
sealed Polaroid film boxes, loaded Walters' cameras and wrote down the
serial numbers of the film packs. Newman was also keeping track of the film
counter of each camera. Walters took several unplanned souvenir pictures of
people who had joined the small group.
  Because of the cold weather the spectators left, but several
pretended to leave and returned in the darkness. They could not see
Walters because of bushes and a restroom facility building. They
could, however, see the treetops above Walters' position.
  Maccabee said that the witnesses saw two flashes in rapid succession
illuminate the treetops. A few moments later they saw Walters run out of
the bushes to his truck and turn on the headlights. The witnesses gathered
around and watched the pictures develop, and those pictures showed a UFO.
  "Those people watched the film develop, which means the photos had to
have been taken shortly before," Maccabee said. "There was no time in the
middle to diddle with stuff."
  Maccabee said that he had experimented with trying to slow or stop the
film development, even by freezing the film. He said that he managed only
a slight slowdown in development, certainly not enough to have been part of
a hoax.
  Critics have suggested that someone may have been showing Walters
something to photograph, such as a balloon. However, weather conditions
that night would rule out a balloon.
  Ed Walters said that the weather was cold and nasty that night.
  "The wind was coming right off the water," Frances Walters said.
  Hoax theories and debunking efforts still abound.
  "I don't know how they (debunkers) sleep at night," Ed Walters said.
"What is so intimidating about these photos that would cause such a
reaction among the debunkers?"
  Lately articles have appeared in some newspapers in which the primary
source of information has been Willy Smith. MUFON has distanced itself from
Smith, who was originally an investigator involved in Walters' case. Smith
was implicated in a debunking effort in which an image of a Gulf
Breeze-type UFO appeared in a photograph of the Chrysler Building in New
York City.
  Smith claimed that Ed Walters took the picture.
  UFO investigator Antonio Huneeus and commercial photographer Manuel
Fernandez came forward and stated that Huneeus had Fernandez make the
photograph for study and experimental purposes. They said that it
was not an Ed Walters photograph.
  Smith has also claimed that the so-called ghost pictures show
that Walters was familiar with making multiple exposures before he made the
UFO photographs.
  Walters said that Smith has taken the entire ghost picture idea out of
context. He said that it is a game he plays with various teenage visitors
to his house, and that the game is that the ghost is "in" you, not beside
you.
  He said that he first takes normal pictures of several people. For the
picture of the person the ghost is "in" he focuses the camera for
long-distance and takes the picture with the subject about four feet away.
  The flash on his Polaroid camera makes the subject's eyes turn completely
white, and the subject is a little blurry. That is what he calls a ghost
picture. It involves no multiple exposures.
  The picture Willy Smith has shown as a ghost picture is of a teenage girl
standing in front of a sliding glass door. It shows blobs of light near the
girl.
  Maccabee said that he has confirmed that fingerprints and smudges on
glass can cause similar reflections without the glass itself reflecting
light. Frances Walters said that she had never cleaned that glass door.
  The mysterious blue beam that appears in Walters' photographs and other
witnesses' reports has also brought forth much speculation.
  "It can lift you up, it can hold you down," Maccabee said.
  Walters said, "The blue beam stops you from moving; the white flash, I
believe, if it strikes you on the head, incapacitates you."
  "I don't know that, but I believe it's true," he said.
  Walters explained how he captured the picture of the blue beam
and Frances running in the doorway. He said that he was going outside while
holding the camera up, and that the blue beam suddenly flashed just where
he was about to step. At that time, Frances ran inside and he pushed the
shutter release without even looking through the viewfinder.
  A new apparent debunking attempt is underway.
  An advertisement appeared in the Pensacola newspaper. The ad states,
"Hoax UFO balloons are illegal." The advertisement text then says that
anyone who sees or knows of UFO balloons should call a certain telephone
number.
  "That's a Phil Klass phone number," Walters said. Walters also pointed
out that the 1990 MUFON symposium will be in early July in Pensacola.
He said that it would not be surprising if someone found a UFO balloon just
in time for the symposium.
  Walters also mentioned a flyer that someone stuffed in Gulf Breeze
mailboxes referring to him. It said, in part, "Many of our sources report
how often this UFO nut can be seen drunk at local taverns."
  He said that the debunker obviously did not know that Santa Rosa County
is dry, therefore there are no local taverns.
  "There is certainly a difference between an honest skeptic and a
debunker," Walters said. "A debunker is compelled to convince all others
that there is no such thing as a UFO; therefore, Gulf Breeze should be
swept away."
  "I think probably most of you understand now, if you don't you should,
that Gulf Breeze is not just Ed and Frances Walters," Walters said.
  "It would be almost as strange as a UFO to imagine that you can reject
Ed's case as being a hoax and accept all the rest of them as being real,"
Maccabee said.
  Walters declined to identify Believer Bill and Jane, two people
who anonymously gave pictures of UFOs similar to those Walters saw to the
Gulf Breeze Sentinel. He said that he knows their identity.
  "I might have said it (Believer Bill's name) publicly a few times, and I
might have hurt him," Walters said. "It's not up to me to denigrate or
expose someone who doesn't want to be exposed."
  "It's job-related suicide for some professions," he said.
  He acknowledged that he may have erred in trying to remain anonymous, but
said he was trying to protect his family.
  "I probably made the mistake that if you don't come forward, the news
media will turn into a school of sharks," Walters said. "But if you don't
come forward it almost makes it worse, because then they are going to track
you down."
  "They'll try their best to leap upon you from the bushes," he said.
  "For two years I tried my best to shun publicity," Walters said. "If they
(debunkers) hadn't attacked so viciously, the book wouldn't have been
written."
  On Jan. 8, 1990, witnesses saw another UFO, and this time the military
apparently took an interest.
  Ed Walters said that he and Frances were out walking near the Methodist
Church in Gulf Breeze when they saw a large red light in the sky.
  "We'd been criticized early on for not always dancing to a phone and
calling somebody, so in this case, we said well, what the heck, we'll run
back to the house, take a chance that it's still going to be there, and
we'll call people," Walters said. "I ran to the phone and started to call
investigators."
  Walters reached two answering machines and a paging machine. He then
called Duane Cook and a friend who he had promised he would call, and they
said they were on the way.
  "This was all on faith that the object was still in the sky," he said. "I
didn't know, I was still inside."
  "It could have already gone and then I would look very foolish because
everybody would have come a'running and I'd be embarrassed," Walters said.
  Walters said, "I started to put together this new camera I'd purchased."
He said that he started running back toward the church while still trying
to attach the lens to the camera.
  Duane Cook and his son arrived and both saw the object. Two other people
approached and now the object was visible to six people gathered near the
church.
  "I could see through the zoom lens this black disc," Walters said. He
said that the disc was visible against a moonlit cloud cover.
  Walters and city councilwoman Brenda Pollak took some photographs.
Walters' camera had a zoom lens with a maximum focal length of about 200
mm., and Pollak had a 300 mm. lens on her camera. However, both had their
cameras set on automatic exposure and the cameras automatically set long
exposures.
  Walters' photograph shows a red blurry blob.
  "The critics and the debunkers would have me being a photo expert, some
kind of genius," he said.
  Just after Walters made his exposure, the red light went out or, as
others reported, the disc turned over.
  Pollak then took her photograph. Her photograph shows an image that looks
like multi-colored pearls on a string.
  Maccabee said that the light changed colors 110 times during Pollak's
three-second exposure. Since the camera was handheld with the 300 mm. lens,
the image was a snakelike line with a blob of different colored light for
each time the light changed colors.
  "I think this is a phenomenal picture," Walters said. "It doesn't solve
anything, it just adds to the questions."
  "Some of the witnesses remember seeing a white light while the picture
was being taken," Walters said. "We don't know we've captured this odd
effect until the film comes out."
  The object then vanished, apparently into the low-lying cloud cover.
  Walters said that moments later, about six helicopters approached from
the direction of Pensacola Naval Air Station. "There's no question where
those helicopters came from," he said.
  He said that the helicopters approached the area of the church,
illuminated floodlights and searched the area around the church. The object
had been directly over the church when it vanished.
  A Navy chief, who was not an official spokesman, first told an
investigator that the Naval Air Station dispatched the helicopters on a
Search and Rescue mission. According to Walters, the investigator pressed
further and the chief told the investigator, "You know what's been going on
over there, you guess."
  Another red light appeared near the bridge from Gulf Breeze to Pensacola
on the night of April 18, 1990, and many witnesses took photographs while
several made videotapes. Maccabee said that he has most of the
negatives and videotapes.
  Ed and Frances Walters' experiences have given them what could be called
an insiders' perspective on the UFO phenomenon.
  "The toughest part is not understanding," Ed Walters said. "I don't like
the idea that there may be something out there that may be a threat."
  Frances Walters said, "For every answer that you come up with, you seem
to come up with a lot more questions."
  "Sometimes I think we haven't learned a darn thing," she said.
  A participant at the conference asked Ed Walters if he is ready for
another visit from the visitors.
  "If they come symbolically to my front door, and they knock on the door,
and they say, 'Hi, we're travelers from afar. Can we come in?' I'll open
the door," Walters said. "If they try to come in the back door, in the
darkness, and invade my household, I will resist and I will fight back."

                                  ###

Copyright 1990 John B. Hicks

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: -=<SWAMP GAS>=- ParaNet Zeta Reticuli 602-951-3431 HST (1:114/37)

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Dr. Maccabee refutes Salisberry's findings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:07:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 249


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

11/8/90

            REANALYSIS OF PHOTO #19 SUPPORTS WALTERS' STORY

                                by

                          Bruce Maccabee



  In his initial testimony regarding the "Road Shot (Photo #19), Ed Walters
reported that he had been driving along highway 191-B at about 6:00 PM on
Jan. 12, 1988 when a brilliant white light suddenly entered the cab of his
truck. This caused him to lose some sensation of feeling in his hands and
forearms. He said that he momentarily lost control of the truck and swerved
to the left hand side of the road and then onto the left side shoulder. As
this was happening he observed a UFO moving above and ahead of him and, as
he managed to stop the truck on the left shoulder, the UFO was hovering
several hundred feet ahead over the road. Ed said he had his Polaroid
camera with him in the truck. He grabbed the camera and took the picture
(Photo #19). But then he realized the object was moving and he had the
impression that it was going to come back and hit him with the white beam
again. He immediately crawled under the truck where he would be completely
shielded. Unfortunately his legs were still protruding as the UFO did,
indeed, shine the white beam down on him again.

  The complete story of the Road Shot (and Ed's other sightings) is told
in his book, The Gulf Breeze Sightings (Morrow, NY, 1990). This is a
must-read for anyone who wants to understand the historical context of
Photo 19, the stereo photos of May 1 (which will be referred to later) and
of all of the Gulf Breeze Sightings. Technical analysis is provided in A
History of the Gulf Breeze Sightings (updated version available from the
Fund for UFO Research). For the purposes of this discussion the description
given above of how Photo #19 happened to be taken is sufficient.

  During the initial analysis of Photo 19, in the spring of 1988, it was
assumed that the bright irregular image within the image of the road was
the reflection of light from a non-uniformly radiating source within the
glowing bottom of the UFO, and that the UFO was actually over the
reflection. This seemingly reasonable assumption allowed the size of the
UFO to be estimated in the following way. First the location of the
reflection was determined by projecting a sighting line across the road in
the direction of a "tree bump" in the skyline that appears above the image
of the UFO. As a person walked along the sighting line form the camera
position toward the tree bump he crossed the road and actually walked
through the location of the reflection. Since the reflection image partially
obscured the yellow line in the road, it was assumed that where the sighting
line crossed the yellow line was the approximate location of the
reflection, and hence the approximate location of the UFO. Measurements
made on the site yielded a distance of about 185 feet from the camera to
where the sighting line crossed the yellow line, When this distance was
combined with the size of the UFO image on the film the size of the actual
UFO could be calculated. It was found to be about 7.5 ft across the bottom
bright area, about 9 feet high and about 12 feet across the mid-section.

  The calculation of the UFO size is the extent of the analysis that has
been published to this date. However, in an unpublished calculation done
during the summer of 1988, I used the RI to estimate the size of the
illuminated area on the road. A simplified calculation showed that it had to
be quite long in the dimensions along the line of sight. In fact, I
estimated it to be about 80 feet long, if its center were 185 feet from the
camera. Although this was a surprise to me, I simply attributed this to
light coming out from the bottom of the UFO in a non-circular pattern at
very flat angles (i.e., nearly horizontal). This seemed odd, but it
certainly didn't violate physics.

  Recently Rex and Carol Salisberry, in reevaluating the Walters sightings,
carried out an independent analysis of the RI in Photo #19. Being unaware
of my 1988 calculation of the elliptical spot on the road they proceeded
from another assumption. They assumed, for unstated reasons, that light
could only come downward from the UFO in a direction roughly parallel to
the (nearly) vertical axis of the UFO. Combining this assumption with my
estimate of the bottom diameter (7.5 feet) they concluded that if the UFO
were real, then it would illuminate a spot on the road that would be only
slightly larger than the bottom of the UFO itself. That is, they claimed
that the illuminated spot on the road would have been nearly circular and
only about 7.5 to 8 feet in diameter. They then used simple photogrammetric
and trigonometric calculations to predict what the size of the RI should be
under their assumptions. They predicted that the RI should appear as a very
thin line in Photo 19. Since it is, in fact, a very fat line (measured
vertically), it disagrees with their prediction. Hence, they claimed that
the RI could not have been caused by an actual reflection in the road since
to do so would be a virtual physical impossibility (Salisberry, Interim
Report on the Reopening of the Walters UFO Case, 23 Sept. 1990). The
discovery of this "physical impossibility" led them to further conclude
that the RI must have been faked (by double exposure) with the logical
consequence that the whole photo, the story, etc. were all faked.

 It is of great importance to note that their result follows directly
(after some simple math) from their assumption that light from the UFO
could only travel downwards (roughly) parallel to the axis. If they had
allowed for the possibility that light could travel outward from the bottom
of the UFO at very flat angles then they would have seen that the spot on
the road could be much larger than the bottom of the UFO. This is the
result I obtained in the summer of 1988.

  My reanalysis of Photo #19 is based on the assumption that the RI really
was caused by light reflected from the road. Starting from this assumption
I have estimated the nearest and farthest points of the reflection. The
distances from the camera to these points were estimated by combining
on-site measurements with measurements on the photographs. By measurement
it was found that the sighting line from the camera toward the tree bump
crosses the near edge of the road at a distance of about 90 feet from the
camera and the far edge of the road about 490 feet from the camera. The
illuminated spot on the road lies between these two distances. Using
photogrammetric techniques involving angles that are determined by
measurements on the photographs, I estimated that the closest point of the
illuminated area to the camera (the lowest point of the RI) was about 180
feet away, and the farthest point was about 305 feet away. (These distances
could easily be off by 10 feet either way because of the low precision in
measuring the actual boundary positions of the images.) Similarly, the
width of the illuminated area was about 8 feet. Thus the spot on the road
was approximately a thin ellipse with the long axis running along the
sighting line to the UFO. (These calculations did not take into account the
slight downward slope to the road from the centerline toward the edge. To
take this into account would require a much more complicated analysis and a
very accurate survey of the road. If the downward slope were to be taken
into account it would likely decrease by a small amount the calculated
length of the illuminated area.)

  Although the illuminated area is highly elongated, there is no physical
reason why such an area could not be produced by a UFO (or by a
conventional light source). Thus this analysis shows that the RI is not a
"virtual physical impossibility" and it cannot be used as proof that Photo
19 is hoaxed. However, the analysis does raise the question of how the
highly elongated illuminated area might have been produced.

  One way would be for the UFO to be over the far end of the reflection,
for example, and emanating a very elliptical (in cross-section_ beam in the
direction of Ed's truck, but pointed downward so that it hit the road.
Alternatively, the UFO might be over the center of the illuminated area,
directing light downwards and both toward and away from the truck. Yet a
third possibility is that the UFO is farther away from the truck than the
illuminated area and is directing a beam downwards and toward the truck. It
is this last possibility which I find most interesting.

  It is important to realize that a previous assumption can be arbitrarily
rejected. Previously I and others had assumed that the UFO was actually
over the illuminated spot on the road. With this assumption it was possible
to calculate the size of the UFO based on the image size and on the
measured distance to the reflection (assumed to be rather compact and
centered about 185 feet away). Thus the assumption was necessary for the
previous analysis. However, it was not justifiable since the distance to an
object cannot (generally) be estimated from a single photograph.

  The distance to an object can be calculated from a stereo pair of
photographs, however, and Ed obtained just such a pair on May 1, 1988. The
details of this sighting are in Ed's book. The information which is
important here is that, using a stereo camera with a two foot baseline, Ed
photographed two UFOs, the larger of which looks like the UFO in the Road
Shot (see Ed's book for further details). These stereo photos also have
images of lights which were at a known large distance. The images of the
distant lights allowed the cameras to be calibrated for parallax. After the
calibration had been done it was found that the UFO was about 475 feet away
(over water!) and nearly 15 feet in diameter across the bottom. Thus its
width was nearly twice the value which I had originally estimated for the
Road Shot UFO (about 7.5 feet).

  Assume, now, that the size of the Road Shot UFO was the same as the size
of the large May 1 UFO. Since the image size corresponds to a bottom
diameter of 7.5 feet at 185 foot distance, then it also corresponds to a
diameter of 15 feet at about 370 feet.

  If the UFO were actually 370 feet from the camera (but still over the
road) the sighting line crossed the far side of the road at 490 feet), then
the UFO would have been 65 feet from the farthest point of the reflection
(at 305 feet from the camera). Hence the only way that light could get from
the UFO to the illuminated spot on the road would be if the UFO projected a
beam of light 65 feet toward the truck but downward at a slight angle so
that the beam hit the road. The color of the RI suggests that this beam of
light was white or pale yellow.

  A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene, with the illuminated spot
between the camera and the UFO, is presented in Figure 1. This
reconstruction can explain a puzzling fact about the RI: its high level of
brightness. Under the previous assumption that the UFO was directly over
the reflection I carried out tests with a powerful, 100,000 candlepower
spotlight shining directly down onto the road. This reflection of the beam
on the road made film images that were much, much less bright than the RI.
Hence I had to assume that there was an extremely intense (much, much more
than 100,000 candlepower) source of light within the UFO.

  This new reconstruction can explain the brightness of the RI quite easily
without resort to extremely intense light sources within the UFO. It is
well known that virtually any surface, even a rough black surface like a
road, can give a strong reflection in the forward direction when
illuminated by light at a grazing angle. This is the phenomenon of forward
gloss (a rough, diffuse reflector becomes nearly a specular reflector at
grazing incidence). This particular case, with the beam from the UFO
hitting the road at a flat angle (several degrees) and the camera viewing
the illuminated area at a flat angle (about a degree), is virtually
"optimized" for the forward gloss effect. Experiments with a spotlight have
confirmed this effect at the site of the Road Shot. Hence it is reasonable
to conclude that the RI is a result of a moderately intense beam of light,
like that from a powerful flashlight, projected downward at a slight angle
from the UFO, incident at nearly a grazing angle on the road and reflected
in the direction of the truck.

  Although the photograph itself provides no information which would allow
us to choose which is the actual situation (e.g., UFO over the center of
the reflection, UFO at the far end of the reflection, UFO beyond the
reflection, etc.), the context of the situation does provide enough
supplementary information to suggest a choice. ED described being hit by a
white light before he ran off the road. He said that after he took the Road
Shot he climbed under the truck because he thought the UFO was going to
zap him again with the white light. (He says that the UFO did just that
while he was crawling under the truck.) What might have caused him to think
that the UFO was going to direct the white light at him again? Could it be
that the white light was contained within a beam from the UFO and that Ed
realized that the beam was hitting the road just ahead of him after he took
Photo 19? Perhaps the white spot on the road, made by the beam, started
moving slowly toward the truck just after Ed took the picture. Under these
circumstances, he might well have concluded that the object was going to
try to hit him again with the beam.

  Although there is no direct photographic evidence that the RI was made by
a white beam on the road, the preceding discussion shows that the existence
of such a beam would be consistent with Ed's story and with the brightness
of the RI. The existence of a beam also allows the UFO to be further from
the truck than the reflection and this, in turn, means that the UFO in the
Road Shot could have been then same size as was the "large size Type 1 UFO"
in the May 1 stereo photos.


                                CONCLUSION

  The preceding analysis shows that the sample of the RI is not a "physical
impossibility" and hence does not prove the Road Shot is a hoax as claimed
by Rex and Carol Salisberry.

  A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene based on this reanalysis supports
Ed's story by demonstrating that the RI may actually have been caused by the
white light, which Ed described, in the form of a beam projected from the
UFO toward the truck.

  Note:  Photo 14 also has an RI underneath the image of the UFO. The RI is
quite non-circular and can be explained in a manner similar to the
explanation of the RI in Photo 19.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Statement from Florida SD Don Ware
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:07:58 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 49


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

The following was sent to me from Donald M. Ware with permission
to upload it here.  Don is Florida state director of MUFON and has
been overseeing the Gulf Breeze UFO investigation.  He is a retired
Air Force officer (Lt. Colonel) now residing in Ft. Walton Beach, FL.


DBC
7-19-88

---------------------------------------------------------------------

POSITION STATEMENT ON THE 1987-88 UFO SIGHTINGS
OF GULF BREEZE, FL

     As MUFON State Director living only 44 miles from Gulf Breeze,
I have helped coordinate the activities of seven local investigators
and three internationally known investigators of the many UFO
reports in this area.  There have been at least 68 reports of objects
that, after various amounts of investigation, we have not been able
to identify as either naturally produced or made by man.  These
include 135 witnesses of which 4 reported alien beings, 6 reported
blue beams, and 9 reported periods of missing time suggesting
abductions.  Over 60 UFO photographs have been taken.

     I am convinced that these sightings are proof of alien visitation.
The level of technology demonstrated indicates they can come and
go at will and can reside in a variety of places: the bottom of our
oceans, inside major high altitude ice fields, in earth orbit, on the
moon, on Mars, etc..

     One might ask why one couple in Gulf Breeze has been allowed
18 photographic sessions. The most obvious reason to me is the
aliens want people to see the photographs.  I hope this causes more
people to give serious thought to the idea that we, as an intelligent
species, are not alone in the universe.


Donald M. Ware

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Message about Hyser Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:08:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 83


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message #5474 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 10-Nov-91  2:12
   From : John Hicks
     To : all
Subject : Hyser report

  Here's the scoop on the Hyser report (so far).
  Rex Salisberry says he has a copy of William Hyser's report on some of Ed
Walter's photos but can't release it to us yet because of a committment he
made to Hyser to not release the report without his (Hyser) permission.
  Jerry Black sent a copy to Phil Klass, and Phil quoted a little of it in his
newsletter. Rex said Hyser went through the roof.
  Anyway, the gist of the report is that Hyser found quite a few things in the
photos that were *consistent with* multiple exposures, but nothing that
constituted *proof* of multiple exposures.
  I think we've already discussed most of those items and picked the photos
apart, but of course we don't have any clout so we don't really count. ;-)
  Also, in the October 1991 _Photomethods_, (a journal for commercial/
industrial photographers) Hyser went through an example of how to do a
multiple exposure and have the object appear to be behind another darker
object. The example was a ufo behind a church steeple at night (surprise!)
  Anyway, he presents the idea of the film's threshold sensitivity as being
the key to having a foreground object appear black against a slightly light
object.
  Look at Ed Walter's photo #1, in which we see a ufo behind a tree branch.
Keep that in mind.
  Now I'll walk through the threshold sensitivity thing, in plain English. In
the graphic arts and photolab industries, the process is called flashing, so
you guys familiar with that stuff will now already know what I'm talking
about.
  Photographic film (paper etc.) requires a minimum amount of light for an
image to "stick." For example, let's say the threshold is five photon (units
of light). If the film receives only four photons, they'll most likely
dissipate before you develop the film. If the film receives more than five
photons, they "stick" and you have a latent image (waiting to be developed).
  So, an area of film that receives only four photons will be black (clear)
and an area that receives six photons will have density.
  Listen closely now.....
  A ufo model is first photographed against a black background, and is exposed
just below the threshold, say, just under five photons. If you were to develop
the film, you'd see no image.
  *But* you make a second exposure on the same sheet of film. The second
exposure consists of a black tree and an illuminated skyline. You make this
exposure slightly underexposed.
  Where the tree overlaps the ufo, the film doesn't receive any additional
light, so you have a total exposure still of just under five photons; no
image. The combination of the skyline *and* the ufo below-the-threshold image
make up more than five photons, so not only do you have the skyline image,
you've kicked the ufo image over the five-photon threshold too; you have an
image of a ufo against a skyline, with a (black) tree that appears to be in
front of the ufo.
  *But* such a multiple exposure isn't without artifacts. The very dark image
of the ufo will tend to take on the colors of the background. Sort of a
chameleon effect.
  Also, to heighten the contrast between the ufo image and the skyline, you
can develop the film for a longer time (Polaroid 108 too).
  Now, take another good close look at the Ed Walters photos......
  My opinion? (since you didn't ask)
  This process is certainly workable, and wouldn't be anywhere near as
cumbersome as masking techniques in the darkroom, then printing onto Polaroid
etc. But it'd be hard to control. But certainly workable.
  I think we have another valid hoax theory. Not proof, but a theory that can
explain photo #1.
  William G. Hyser is a consultant in optical instrumentation, photogrammetry,
forensic engineering, electrical contact physics and illumination engineering.
Perhaps best of all, he's not a ufologist.

                                           jbh

---
 * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29)

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Jim Speiser message about Ed and the model
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:09:45 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 109


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


Message #5717 - UFO
   Date: 11-11-91 13:09
   From: Jim Speiser
     To: All
Subject: Ed and the model
Replies: -> #5721

        One of the reasons I reject Ed Walters' claims regarding his
photographs of the Gulf Breeze object is the sheer NUMBER of
little controversies surrounding the photos and events there. One of
those controversies, of course, is the model that was found in Ed's
former residence. Ed has been very good at putting out fires, by
misdirecting people's attention to little details that would seem to
exonerate him. But now there is another controversy arising out of the
model, and that is the apparent attempt by someone to "go back in time"
and change the relevant evidence, or get rid of it altogether.

The evidence hinges on the house plans made by Ed Walters which appear
on the inside of the UFO model. Ed claims the plans were drawn up in
September of 1989, two years after his first UFO photos were made
public. But, according to Phil Klass' "Skeptics UFO Newsletter", July
1991 issue....

<<

It can now be revealed that in early January, 1987, Walters and Russ
McElhinney decided to build a a house "on speculation" at 712 Jamestown
Drive which would have a Living Area of 1740 sq. ft. and whose garage
entrance would be PARALLEL to the long dimension of the house -- as in
the UFO-model house plan. On Jan. 16, 1987, Walters and McElhinney filed
a building permit request with the Gulf Breeze City Hall and 12 days
later, on Jan. 28, they filed a building permit reqeust with Santa Rosa
County ... However, the Slab Area shown does NOT match the 2393 sq. ft.
visible on the UFO-model drawing.

But if one calculates the Slab Area for the Thomas house plan, it does
not total 2393 either. When I pointed this out to Maccabee, he replied
that "the term `slab area' does not mean just the area where there is
concrete slab. How Ed arrived at the [2393] number is a straightforward
caluclation for him, even though it may seem strange to you (and me)."
(The "Spec House" was never built. A short time later, Mr./Mrs. Gerald
Folkers contracted with Ed to build a somewhat different design at 712
Jamestown Drive.)

Soon after the small UFO-model was discovered, Ed Walters visited the
owners of his former residence to inspect the model they had found. A
short time later, Ed and his wife Frances visited City Hall to examine
house plans. Later it was discovered that the lower right corner of the
"spec" house drawing - where the Living Area and Slab Area figures
normally are shown - had been torn off by some "person unknown."

WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR
OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA
FIGURES? Several potential suspects come to mind: The KGB, The Pope,
Dolly Parton, Barbara Bush, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Saddam Hussein,
Donald Trump, and VP Dan Quayle. If you can think of any other possible
suspects, please submit name(s) to SUN.

>>

I plan to scan the 1/28/87 building permit application into the system
and will distribute it. Again, not the smoking gun, but just another of
those "little controversies" that mar this case.

Jim Speiser

Note: This message originally appeared on ParaNet a few months ago. I'm
reposting it here because the controversy over the plans has come up here
recently and I wanted to try and clarify a few things.
JS

--- QuickBBS 2.75
 * Origin: REMOTRON ASSOCIATES INC    Scottsdale, AZ    Freq FILES (1:114/37)



Message #5721 - UFO
   Date: 11-12-91 10:14
   From: John Hicks
     To: Jim Speiser
Subject: Ed and the model
Replies: #5717 <-

 > WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR
 > OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA
 > FIGURES?

  Hee hee!
  Also, I've been told that round about the same time, Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed
Grey visited the planning & zoning dept. (or whatever they call it) for the
very first time, all by himself. Unknown whether that was before or after the
Walters' visit.

                                           jbh

---
 * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29)

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Salisberry CI$ conference transcript
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:10:40 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 550


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

[Transcript of an Online Conference with Carol and Rex Salisberry. Two MUFON
UFO investigators in the Gulf Breezes, Florida case.  Terry Ecker acts as a
local host. Sunday, Septmeber 2, 1990]

User  User ID        Nod  Area      Name
----  -------------  ---  --------  -------------------
   1  76146,2631     HLV  Rm  5     Vince
   2  76703,266      DUK  Rm  5     G-WIZ
   3  76012,3361     BMD  Rm  5     Ted
   4  71450,3504     ANN  Rm  5     Bert
   5  71207,1165     PSF  Rm  5     Rex & Carol
   6  76004,340      QGD  Rm  5     Jack
   7  70431,3543     PRI  Rm  5     Paula
   8  72540,1652     DWC  Rm  5     Tom
  15  74270,3360     SIF  Rm  5     DON

(5-3,Ted) Tonights special guests are Carol and Rex Salisberry MUFON
investigators on the Gulf Breezes UFO case. Carol and Rex wil discuss and
answer questions about the numerous sighting in the area.  Because the case
is still on going and also because of all the senstionalist press the Ed
Walters case is NOT one they wish to debate.  Many thanks to Terry Ecker
foracting as the local host in Florida. With that behind us, Carol? Rex? Do
you have any opening remarks? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We just want o thank you for having us as guests. ga

(5-1,Vince) ?

(Bert) ?

(5-6,Jack) ?

(5-3,Ted) I will open the floor to ? and !. Please type a "?" or a "!" if you
have a question or comment and I will take your name down and flag you when
it is your turn. GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Rex would like to know your background and how you became
interested in ufo's?

(5-5,Rex & Carol)  Retired Air Force 31 years rasnk colonel, pilot for 20
plus, R&D last 15 years. POresently teach college parttime. Have always
been interested in UFOs, just been more active past couple of years Carol and
a friend saw three daylight disks in spring of 88, Pardon Terry's typing. ga

(5-3,Ted) Bert is next GA

(Bert) ok...
Rex and Carol, one of the more significant signtings by multiple
witnesses seems to have been the one on Sept. 12, 1989 involving
about 35 witnesses including 12 MUFON investigators. The recent
in the Sentinel (9/21/89) suggested that this was a
"type II" object (i.e. like photos 20 and 22 in the "book").
I understand that Bruce Maccabee analyzed photographs of this event
Have the results of this analysis been completed and was the object
indeed a "type II'? Also have your own investigations involved this
particular event or related events? Thanks. GA

(5-5,Rex & Carol) First, we doubt that there were 35 witnesses.
Anyway, fewer than half saw it, and not all of
the MUFON investigators saw it. It was just aq red dot kin the sky.
One photo was taken, not nalyzed to our knowledge.
We don't consider that a significant sighting by any means. ga

(5-3,Ted) Jack is next. GA

(5-6,Jack) Rex and Carol , I am most interested in any physical evidence
that may be associated
with the GB sightings. Has any been found or is the bulk of the evidence
primarily photos and sightings ? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Many persons have mysterious physical marks
on their bodies, such as puncture wounds, new scars with no previous wound,
etc. Not many photos, and few of them show much. We have a few small pieces
of metal which were gathered from inside the car after the driver was struck
by something on the left shoulder; metal not yet analyzed. ga

(5-10,Steve) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Steve

(5-10,Steve) Rex, As a retired military officer. What is your opinion as to
the extent of official government cover up and/or involvment at GB and at
other UFO sites, ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We think it's obvious the government has always covered up
to someextent. We have no evidence to indicate government involvement in
the cases here. ga

(Bert)?

(5-3,Ted) While we are waiting for the next round of ?s and !s I have a ?
Carol or Rex, just how many people have sighted the GB UFO and how many have
shown body markings? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Gulf Breeze UFO is misleading. Many different types have been
seen, all shapes, all sizes some with markings, some with windows.
Triangular shapes transparent UFOs, arrow head shapes, cigar shaped and disks.
The GB (Walters) UFO not seen by many. ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(Bert) Could you describe one or two of what you feel are your most significant
cases. Particularly involving on of the skin wounds if possible. ga

(5-3,Ted) Good ? Bert GA C&R

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Two witnesses, mother and daughter, are with us tonight.
One has wounds on her arm in the shape of the object she saw, delta shaped.
They wer standing in their driveway; the object covered their yard and the
yard next door - about 150 feet. Had a bright white light on front, a red
light on each corner. It was followed by a cigar shaped object with a white
light on the left and a red light on the right; both were followed by a very
small red light that appeared to be trying to catch up. There was no sound.
We just held hands as they went over us at treetop level. We jumped in our
car and tried to follow it, lost sight, but seen again six miles to the east
in reverse order. ga

(5-3,Ted) Any missing time? ga
(Bert) ?follow

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Not that either is aware of. They were disoriented and
lethargic for a few days. Hypnosis has been attempted with no conclusive
results so far. Body markings are as yet unexplained. ga

(5-3,Ted) Bert has a follow up ? Then it's Matt's turn. GA Bert

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Hi Don.
(Bert) Have the two witnesses had any further sightings and/or is this a
one-time thing? ga

(5-15,DON) Hello all.

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, many times beginning in 1958 and some since. On one
occasion we followed one to their house and all four of us saw it. ga
Same object shape etc.?ga

(5-6,Jack) ?

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) They have seen several sizes and shapes. The one we
followed to their house was just a round white ball. ga

(5-3,Ted) Matt GA
(5-3,Ted) Matt are you still with us? ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Not on the list.

(5-5,Rex & Carol) !

(5-3,Ted) Ok Matt, I had you down for a ? my mistake. GA R&C

[NOTE: Ted was having problems with his CIM Software and CosmicThAng/Philly
was showing up as Matt on his computer. Hence, a LOT of confusion!]

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We have one long term case dating back 16 years to the
abduction of the mother in Germany. Through hypnosis she has total recall of
the event and has povided detailed descriptions of the craft and the
 entities. Th craft was a 40 foot disk with a crew of six. One had died nd a
second ship was bringing a replacement crew member. Entities looked like
greys in silver suits. They seemed capable of emotion such as anger,
compassion, etc. The family has had more than 20 sightings here during the
past year. ga

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) Ok GA MATT

(Bert) Looks like only Ted can see Matt the phantom.ga

(5-3,Ted) Ok Jack is next GA Jack

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No Matt on the list here.

(5-6,Jack) Ok...


(Bert) Hmmmm, not here.ga
(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Wait a second.  Ted says I'm Matt. I'm CosmisThAng
and I'm next. ga

(5-6,Jack) Regarding the pieces of metal when is the completed analysis
expected? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Analysis will *begin* when we find someone who can do it.
(cheap). ga

(Bert) ?

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Is there any local concern by citizens in the area is there any
local govt concern for citizens safety or is there not concern?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Well, we would say that spreading interest is more descriptive
than concern, although some do have concerns. Local government seems to have
no official position but are very cooperative with us on investigastions. We
know of no one who has been physically harmed by the phenomena, except for
the small wounds we have mentioned. ga

(5-7,Paula) ?

(5-3,Ted) Folks  Css is next.  For some reason (probably a CIM bug) he is
showing up as Matt on my list. Oh, well, GA Cosmic

(5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) My questions also deal with bodily marks.
Is there an repeated pattern as to mark type or location?? To re-ask Ted's ?,
how many GB folks have marks? Also is there any history or occu4rance of
migraine headache disorders among the potential abductees?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No identifiable pattern of marks locally, butt call-ins
from other areas have triangular marks mainly. Don't know how many Pensacola
area folks have marks. (We say Pensacola area since most events happen
outside of GB. There are many folks with migraine headaches, buzzing in the
ears. There is possible correlation with contactees. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(Bert) Actually I think Paula is next. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Paula

(5-7,Paula) If not, any theories?  Thanks  ga

(5-9,Russ) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No, but for what it's worth, one name we were given
was Zorcon. We have another contactee with us tonight whose experience goes
back at least 16 years and has written a book on the subject. ga

(5-3,Ted) I want to hear more about that after Bert"s ? ga Bert

(Bert) Rex, can you describe the metal object (poss. alien artifact) that
you mentioned earlier? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Very small, BB size, rough ut shiny, like little metl
pebbles. ga

(5-3,Ted) ANy follow Bert?

(Bert) Yes, does it break appart easily? And have you looked at it under a
microscope? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No, we can't break it. It hasn't yet been examined under
microscope.

(5-3,Ted) Since I have obviously been have a problem with CIM software
tonight I want to be sure that i have not missed anybody...

(5-3,Ted) Is there anyone out there that has been skipped over? ga

(5-9,Russ) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Russ

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-9,Russ) I was wondering if you have noticed any change in the frequency
of sightings in Florida since 1958?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Can't say since 58. Frequence has been relatively constant
the last three years. Before that we weren't here or involved. There are
reports of considerable activity on Eglin AFB in 1976-77-78-79. ga

(5-3,Ted) Vince is next. Ga

(5-9,Russ) ?
(Bert) ?

(5-1,Vince) Rex, when did you retire and did you have any military related
sightings?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) 1983. Sighting in early 60s hih over KC. Mo. We were at
33,000 and UFO up around 40,000. K.C. paper next day reported a landing in
Kansas. ga

(5-7,Paula) ?
(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Russ

(5-9,Russ) Have thre been any reports of the infamous "Men In Black"?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No. Carol had one Man in Black reporting and nother
witness claims to have seen alien at the MUFON Symposium in July. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Your mentioning of a "buzzing in the ear" of a number of witnesses
is this the same type of buzzing involved in the Walters' case? Also
is the support group still meeting -- i.e. in the absence of Overlaid?
And if so, how many people attending. Thanks. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) No on the Walters hum, other have hih pitched ringing while
others have  moderate hum, sometimes with sightings. Support group dissolved
before Overlade died. ga

(5-3,Ted) Paula is next GA

(5-7,Paula) Excuse my ignorance (I'm new to this topic), but what does MUFON
stand for?  Also tell us about the book you mentioned earlier.  Thanks  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) MUFON = Mutual UFO Network. The book is *Star Bright, Star
White* by Norman Hill of Pensacola. I don't know whether it's permitted to
talk about the book, price of how to get it. Will let Ted say. ga

(5-3,Ted) Plug away! ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) P.O. Box 16040, Warrington FL 32507. $10 plus $2
shipping & handling this is a self published hardcover book by a man who has
had many sightings east of here, near Tallahassee, and numerous contacts with
several different entity groups. Normn has spent many nights camping at the
site where he has seen UFOS tkoff and land - the same site where. The site is
 on St. Joe Paper Co. land. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince (then Cosmic)

(5-1,Vince) ok...
(5-1,Vince) Are we any closer to solving the mystery and does there appear to
be any govt interest in the GB area sightings.ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We see no signs of government interest here, nor that we are
close to solving the mystery. Sorry. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Got a follow up, Vince?  ga

(5-1,Vince) no

(5-3,Ted) GA Cos

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) R&C:  You said earlier that the hum sound
correlated with sightings.  Did you mean to indicate that all sounds
correlated (thusly)?..or just the hum sound.  Any correlation with the high
pitched sound?  I've heard that for years and years since childhood.  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) The hum, etc. and sightings are seldom simultaneous,
apparently.Correlation is only possible, not established. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Regarding the metal pieces recovered
did I understand correctly that there are several pieces that all
appeared during the same event and that they are all BB sized hard
objects? ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, three of them. ga

(Bert) ?follow
(5-3,Ted) GA Bert

(5-1,Vince) ?
(Bert) Where were they found? i.e. on the floor of the car or
"stuck" to something in the car? thanks. ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) On the floor. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Have you had any other military flyers relate ufo incidents to
you and was yours reported?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Other flyiers yes, but not for the record. Ours not
reported. ga

(Bert) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Anything new on the AWOL group? And what do you think of this strange
scenario? ga

(5-6,Bruce G) ?
(5-1,Vince) ?
(5-5,Rex & Carol) We talked to four of them three or four weeks ago. They
said they know nothing of "Rapture" or finding the anti-Christ. They repeated
they felt they had to leave Germany but not U.S. Army. Claimed they liked
their work. They had been reading the Bible, mostly. Revelations. Possible
they may have experienced paranormal things in Germany. These paranormal
events continued after they left. They consider themselves as being a simple
AWOL case. They had hoped to meet Bill Cooper since one of his papers bears
similarity to their reading of the Bible. They intend to release details of
their experience to the media soon. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ?

(5-3,Ted) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Pretty serious offense (AWOL) did the army just let them go and
what were their motives?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) AWOL is not too serious. Most go back. Reportedly Army has
600 AWOLs a month. Army granted general discharges to these six. Their
motives were to leave Germany, which they have not yet explained. ga

(5-3,Ted) GA Cosmic!
(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Dealing strictly with pure, unsubstantiated
instinct. Dis you feel that the GB6 were speaking with total candor. Did they
 seem afraid of saying the wrong thing?  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, we thought they were speaking with candor, and they
were not  afraid. We had been aware of their interest in the writings of
Bill Cooper for several months before their arrival in GB....

(5-5,Rex & Carol) We are also aware of their interest in psychic studies. ga

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) follow up?

(5-3,Ted) Follow Cos?

(5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) So the GB & UFO connections are pure coincidence???
Bill Cooper and GB, BOTH??  ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) It appears to be coincidence at this time. They came to GB
to visit a friend. They think their AWOL case has been blown out of
proportion  as well as their "involvement" with UFOs. ga
(Bert) ? Ted got dumped. Rex with all the sightings by multiple witnesses
I think there are 290 plus now, if I remember correctly,. has there been any
thought of having an organized ffort to request (or perhaps DEMAND) an
official investigation i.e. by government officials. I would think there
would be enough people to sign something that would give it a little weight.
But of course we know what the gov. position would probably be. ga

(5-1,Vince) ?

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Most witnesses are reluctant to have their names divulged,
such as the  signing a petition. Any demand would have to be made at
presidential level since decision to withhold UFO information is also made
at that level. We locally lack clout to demand anything. We consider
ourselves fortunate that so many witnesses/contactees have the guts to share
their experiences with us. We would hate to dry up that source. ga

(5-8,Ted ) Sorry folks I got dumped. Who is next?  ga

(Bert) I think Vince is up.

(5-1,Vince) I agree AWOL as such is not that serious but most are just guys
that oversleep. It doesn't appear that they had any intention of returning
and what or where is it stated that the release of UFO information is made at
 presedential level?ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) At the time of their arrest the six were debating their
futures turn themselves in to the Army, hide out in the hills or what. They
repeated several times that their intuition was to leave Germany and not the
Army. If you believe the MJ-12 documents and the President Carter statements
regarding UFOs, one could form the conclusion that such decisions are indeed
made at presidential level. The one case with which I am familiar involving a
foreign country, the disclosure decisions were made by the president. ga

(5-1,Vince) follow

(5-8,Ted ) GA Vince

(5-6,Bruce G) ?

(5-1,Vince) If you believe in the MJ-12 documents there has to be a large
scale coverup and a large infrastructure in not only the military but other
agencies to manage the wealth of information, sightings etc that continue to
be reported. This appears to be too well hidden.ga

(5-5,Rex & Carol) It is hard to know how large the infrastructure might be,
however in personal contact with former Bluebook workers and others, they
relate that considerable UFO related information was systematically withheld
from the public. ga

(5-8,Ted ) GA Bruce

(5-6,Bruce G) This may sound silly, but is there a viable alternative to the
gov't as far as the public is concerned, to report incidental contacts or
sightings...

(5-6,Bruce G) like a 1-900-SAW-AUFO? ga

(5-8,Ted ) $25 for the first 30 seconds! <g>

(5-5,Rex & Carol) There is MUFON, n international reporting and investigative
organization independent of the government. ga

(5-8,Ted ) Anyone else with a ? or ! ga

(Bert)
?
(5-8,Ted ) GA Bert

(Bert) Rex and Carol, is there anything going on in the area there that we
may not have touched on that should be considered of major significance? i.e.
anything new on the "circles" or with animals etc. thx. ga

(5-1,Vince) !

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Nothin new on the circles. Many people are heaing strange
knockings on their doors, windows and aroun the house lately. Several
sightings have been seen over electrical power substations, which mkes one
think maybe they are stealing electricity. About half of our sightings
have aircraft flying in the immediate vicinity. We are investigating a new
case of an event of Christmas 1989 where a lady and her car were abducted for
about 30 minutes. She recalls being 30 or so feet in the air with the car,
descending toward the road. She remembers seeing two types of entities; two
entities were about six feet tall with a lot of hair on their faces which
appeared like animal hair. These two were dressed in white gowns like
doctors. Four other entities were about three nd  half feet tall and about as
 wide. She couldn't see their features. Fat greys? ga

(5-8,Ted ) GA Vince

(5-1,Vince) Oh Rex btw before I forget, FLY NAVY!ga

(5-8,Ted ) Any other ?s GA

(5-8,Ted ) I want to thank Rex and Carol Salisberry for sharing their evening
 with us.  Also special thanks to Anne Ecker for putting up with Terry on
this CO. Anne, Carol, Rex and Terry thanks for a wonderful and informative
evening. GA

(5-5,Rex & Carol) Thank you all. We've enjoyed it.

(5-5,Terry) Nite gang.

(5-6,Bruce G) Thx and Bye!

(5-7,Paula) Thanks all!  Bye!

(5-1,Vince) Nite all

(Bert) Thanks Rex and Carol.

(5-8,Ted ) Matt? Where are you Matt?

(5-1,Vince) Excellent co

(Bert) Night all.

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!male.EBay.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!starflight!jdr
From: [e-mail] (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO-Inspired Speculation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 06:45:29 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 45
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

Like many who are intrigued by the UFO pehnomenon without ever having had a personal
experience with one, I find much of value in the subject as stimulus for developing
new ideas in many fields. Here are a few:

(1) An attempt to design a life-support system for civilized humanity that is
sustainable over geologic time indicates that the only way to do it involves
constraining people to live in cities that are build and operated like multigeneration
starships -- compact, sealed, and self-sufficient in materials. The best sites for such
cities are underground, to minimize maintenance costs. There is no way, even with
nanotechnology, for humanity to remain civilized for very long if it continues to live
in scattered, open settlements. In answer to Enrico Fermi's question, "Where are
They?", this kind of engineering analysis would suggest that if "they" are starfaring,
without benefit of FTL transport technology, and endured long enough to reach us, then
"they" would have to live a lifestyle that would lead them to underground sites upon
arrival at any planet like Earth, and as such, many of "them" could be arriving at
frequent intervals to a planet where many of "them" had long since arrived and become
settled. There is no reason, in principle, why there could not be a million underground
cities, each with a million inhabitants of a different species, without the surface
civilization knowing anything about them, provided that ..

(2) "They" had developed a transport technology that allows "them" to effectively
interpenetrate matter. How might that be done? Leaving aside variations on themes like
Einstein-Rosen "wormholes" or the use of small Kerr-Newman "black holes" to "warp
space" around a vehicle, consider another possibility -- bosonic transport.

    The current favored theory of how superconductivity works is that electrons, which
are fermions, with half-integral spins, pair up into "Cooper" pairs that, being bound
together, act as a single boson, with an integral spin, and as such, are not prevented
from interpenetrating matter in the ways fermions are. Now consider the extension of
this idea: bind a large, even-numbered collection of fermions together into a HUGE
boson, one the size, say, of your average sports model UFO. Could it be done? If it
could, the object would need to be equipped with a mechanism that would enable it to
maintain precisely an even number of fermions in a bound state. One electron too many
or too few would cause it to drop out of its bosonic state, and that could be a problem
if it were passing through a few miles of rock on its way between an underground city
and an excursion to the kid's science project on the surface. A vehicle in a bosonic
state might have interesting attributes and side-effects: glowing in the dark, no sonic
booms, crop circles where it passed through the surface, ...

    There ought to be some good physics in trying to argue why or why not such a thing
might be feasible. Sometimes the most propaedeutic ideas are not the "good" ideas but
the "bad" ones. We aren't going to settle the issues here of whether UFOs "exist" or
what they "are" or what "their" intentions might be. Let's make this newsgroup a forum
for interesting scientific speculations of the kinds that might lead to something
useful.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: Ed Walters on photo analysis
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:11:43 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 103


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------


The following is an open letter from Edward Walters, one
of the primary witnesses in the Gulf Breeze UFO flap.  He
addresses the isssue as to who has examined his original
photographs. He also indicates what he plans to eventually do
with the originals.


-------------------------------------------------------------

July 27, 1989


     A few Gulf Breeze critics, and one in particular, have distorted
the record as to the professional access and study of the
original photos of the Gulf Breeze UFO.  Here is a partial list of
the experts who have studied the ORIGINALS.

JIM TURNER, Photographer and film processing specialist
CURT SHIELDS, Photographer and special effects specialist
MARIE PRICE, Photographer, touch up expert
AL AUDLEMAN, Photographer, re-photographing expert
CHRISTOPHER STARK, Photographer, special effects specialist
MARK CURTIS & replica specialist, ABC News
DR. ROBERT NATHAN, Scientist, optics, etc.
DR. ARNOLD PALMER, Astronomer
DR. BRUCE MACCABEE,  Physicist, Optics, etc.
ROBERT OECHSLER, Analyst of polaroid film and chemistry
DR. MARK CARLATTO, Computer analyst
VINCENT DIPEITRO,  Photographic analyst
JOE GRECO, Photographic analysis scanning equipment
RICHARD VANDENBERG, Photographic expert
EDWARD WEIBE, Electronic engineer, computer analysis
JOHN GARDNER,  Acoustical physicist, video tape analysis
DR. EBERT, computer analysis
NBC photographers, and many, many photographers w/Cosgrove
   Productions

This list goes on and on with others and their associates that I
do not have the names of.  Certainly this shows that the originals
have not been withheld from skeptical study.  The unanimous
conclusion from the above: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE
A HOAX.

I have and will continue to withhold the originals from people
like P. Klass and Willy Smith.  Both proclaimed "hoax", before
seeing the photos and listening to a single one of the dozens of
other witnesses.  Given their history of debunking and Smith's
fake evidence hoax (discovered recently), it would be irrational
to trust the originals in their hands.  If the originals 'disappear'
they could then argue "hoax" with their altered copies and we
would not have the originals to prove that their copies had been
tampered with.

WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE ORIGINALS

The protection of the originals is crucial in the support of the
witness testimony.  But....the testimony also supports the photos.
One without the other means nothing.  As Dr. Maccabee says, "A
UFO photo does not a UFO make" .....therefore, the attempts to
discredit my testimony by the debunkers has been severe.
Distortions and misquotes have been fabricated with abandon.
Locations and details have been intentionally changed leaving
the unsuspecting listener or reader to believe that I am a
hoaxer, prankster, ritual seance master, con man, and all the
other witnesses are deluded.

The documentation of the precise witness testimony is as
necessary as the protection of the originals.  They go hand
in hand.  During the past year it became obvious that a book
was the only way to completely document my testimony.
The media stories were not detailed and misquotes only
allowed the critic to yell "hoax".

When the testimony from the book is available to the public
and all interested scientists, I will contract with a computer lab
and have ALL the photos put on computer imaging tapes.  The
computer lab will not be asked to issue an analysis -- only
supply clear, exact copies of the originals in the computer
format.  Requests from serious researchers to study the tapes
will be encouraged.  The originals will be safe, the documented
testimony will be available and the tapes will further the
technical study of the UFO.


(signature)

Edward Walters

P.O. Box 715
Gulf Breeze, FL
32562

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GULFBREEZE: MUFON message - Maccabee talks about GB witnesses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 01:12:56 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 49


The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's.

------Begin included text---------------------------------------------

Date: 11-02-91  21:22
From: John Powell
Subj: MUFON Meeting

I just attended a Maryland MUFON meeting, (I guess you could call it a
meeting but it seemed more like a mini-convention to me), and l heard some
interesting stuff:

[Disclaimer:  I have great sympathy for reporters.  It is _darn_ hard to
listen and think _and_ take legible notes! <grin>]

Maccabee:
-+-------
Said he knows, by name, 12 other people who have clearly seen the
UFO/Ed-craft.

Showed a bunch of Red-light UFO videotape.  Several different sequences where
something is seen falling/dropping/lowered from the object.  When analyzed,
he said the odd thing about the 'light' that is 'dropped' is that it shows no
detectable signs of acceleration - so whatever it is that's happenning isn't
simply a dropped light/flare/etc...  [Newton would be alarmed... <grin>]

He mentioned a significant GB sighting on 10/30 that was witnessed by many
people and lasted 9 minutes.  Because of the duration and the number of
witnesses he suggested that there could be other implications.

He stated again that he thinks GB, including Ed, is real and 'the most
important event in UFOlogy today...'  [That's not a direct quote.]

He also mentioned that there have been several times when witnesses have seen
kites and balloons with flares but these were infrequent and easily spotted.

He mentioned a sneaky radar confirmation where a MUFON investigator, I think
he said it was Morrison, witnessed a Red-light UFO, called an Air Traffic
Controller at one of the Naval Air Stations in Gulf Breeze and claimed to be
on a boat and 'saw something weird.'  The Controller said they had spotted it
too, had no idea what it was, but were already checking into it...  In a
next-day official inquiry the NAS said they tracked nothing...

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 08:17:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10336 alt.alien.visitors:6186 sci.skeptic:24873

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lance A. Brown) writes:

>John Emory writes a comparison of a Pleiadian transcript and christianity.

>Once again this man has managed to twist a new age topic into a conversion
>attempt for his flavor of christianity.

Overlooking this attempt, it still is a little strange don't you think that
religious teachings that have been followed by billions of people around the
world for many thousands of years say "others are more important than
yourself", and now the Pleiadian's are telling us "only yourself is important"?

Even without considering religious connotations, the laws of many countries
are firmly based on what is best for the community, and what you are _not_
allowed to do to others, rather than what you think is best for yourself.
Society would fall apart if these laws weren't in place - many thousands of
years of conflict have taught us these lessons.  And now we find out we got it
all wrong?  And, we are supposed to believe that beings (supposedly) from
another planet that haven't experienced our history know what's right?

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 17:29:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 23
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carl Witthoft) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>shedding a garment or too in the process).  There's NOTHING magical
>>about 2.5 GHz, except that it was available for use when microwave
>>ovens appeared on the market.
>
>The microwave oven frequency is chosen at or near a water molecule
>absorption peak.  The frequency may be mucked with slightly to

Not so.  I don't remember the details, but there was a long discussion of this
question some time ago (sci.skeptic?), and the conclusion was that this
statement is false.  Different microwave ovens, i.e., home models vs.
commericial models, user quite different wavelengths.  Does someone have
a summary post from that thread?

-Scott

--------------------
Scott I. Chase            "The question seems to be of such a character
[e-mail]        that if I should come to life after my death
                and some mathematician were to tell me that it
                had been definitely settled, I think I would
                immediately drop dead again."      - Vandiver
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Kurtz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFOs on video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 19:44:02 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 24



The talk about the *recent* Gulfbreeze sighting made me think about
another video sighting that I saw probably two years ago on network news
(national), but for which I've no recollection as to where it happened
or if there was ever any follow-up in either the general press or in ufo
channels.

As I recall, the video shows a number of people looking to the sky.  The
videographer then shifts the camera to what the people were looking at
-- a number (5?) of red lights moving erratically in and out of the
frame.  Nothing spectacular, but clearly the people watching the scene
were excited, owing to their exclamations of amazement.  The camera
follows the red objects so that a nearby house comes into view.  We then
see a something resembling a small person, albeit with the requisite
gangly limbs, move in silhouette across a second floor window outside
the house on a ledge.  What was remarkable about the video was that
presumably the person shooting the footage did not know he had also
caught this thing in the window -- he was still shooting the sky.

I don't remember this ever being shown again on television.  Nor do I
recall having read any follow-up reporting.  Can anyone fill in the
blanks for me?  Where did it happen?  Was it ever disproven?  What did
the ufo press say (if anything) about it?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around
Message-ID: <422800029@peg>
Date: 1 Jun 92 04:45:00 GMT
References: <19455636@[e-mail].>
Lines: 12
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail].:-1945563624:peg:422800029:000:439
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!golog    May 31 23:45:00 1992


The field around the body is indeed an interesting one and one
that scientists will one day know a lot more about.

 Your little experiment is quite normal under certain conditions
but unless you give further details about how you achieved this
result we will be unable to completely explain the phenomena.

I have achieved similar things in a metal shed with wires attached
to a monitor.

Are you for real, or are you another metal head?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!Cadence.COM!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 May 92 17:51:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 38
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>Here's an interesting experience.  I was sitting on the floor a short way
>from the TV, playing with a broken piece of metal antenna while watching
>channel 10.  I kept on getting poor reception and could figure out for the
>life of me why ... until I move the metal away from my head.
>
>When I moved it away, the reception became clear, when I moved it back, the
>reception went haywire the very instant the antenna got to within 1/2" of my
>skull.  It was not only repeatible, but it was in fact rather easy to
>control after some practice.
>
>It only happened for this channel, no others.  It only happened when I was
>positioned in a certain general area of the room, and it only happened when
>the antenna was positioned within 1/2" of my head ... not any other body part,
>just the head.



 As it happens, the human body is just about the right size to interfere with
TV signals. That is, humans are about the same size as a multiple or fractional
wavelength of a TV signal. So, you will find that TV reception can vary as
people move around in a room. People who have rabbit ear antennas know this
best.


You set up some interesting interference pattern with the piece of
metal and your head. Your head was not emitting any radition. You could
probably get similar results with a piece of pot roast and the same metal
antenna. The fact it happened only on channel 10 shows that the effect is
frequency dependent.


Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
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From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 18-year old Thomas Sabock discovers simple-substitution cipher
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jun 92 03:44:35 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 13



To quote the famous discoverer:

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Nelson) writes:
|> Va negvpyr <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Znex Jvyyvnz Ubcxvaf) jevgrf:
|>
|> |> V ernyyl jvfu fbzrbar jbhyq trg bss gurve qhssre naq qb fbzr erny vairfgvtngvat
|> |> ba gur gbcvp bs ryrpgebzntargvp svryqf fheebhaqvat gur obql, fb gur jubyr
|> |> fhowrpg pna or qrzlfgvsvrq.

There are enough dickheads posting on this group without help from you, kid-o.
See what your quip gets you on sci.physics.
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From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:49:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 12

>In article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:

>>      At this time I wonder if anyone considers the possibility of
>> the GREY's being a dyeing race.  And let's suppose we, or our

No. No. No.  Based on their color, there is no way the GREYS are a
DYEING race.  If anything, We as humans are the DYEING race.

Hope this doesn't color the discussion too much.

Mike
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From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 00:55:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 19
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[e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:

>>The BIG controversy is in Low-freqeunyc (50-70 Hz) fields, not high
>>frequency effects.  Those are well known.  For example, beam a 100Watt
>>signal at 2.5 GHz at a person, and they cook!.

>    Untrue.  Basal metabolism is 75W, and a healthy human can
>easily shed an order of magnitude more than that as waste heat (perhaps
>shedding a garment or too in the process).  There's NOTHING magical
>about 2.5 GHz, except that it was available for use when microwave
>ovens appeared on the market.

    It's the most convenient water-absorption peak for MW engr.
    BTW, I didn't ever mention how long you would be subjected to
the energy, did I now.

Mike
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: GULFBREEZE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 02:05:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: University of Hawaii at Manoa
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu


                      GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS

     Hey Don,

Enough already!  I want to learn E.T. transportation methods.
You know, U.F.O. travel.101!  Can some of the questions be of a
scientific nature, or do you have to be a newage foo-foo head?
Are you just another belief system pusher or can you provide
some scientific info?

WHAT WE BELIEVE HAS NO PLACE IN SCIENCE!  Objectivity please!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@==> HAVE FUN <==@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (David Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Emory's posts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jun 92 04:38:49 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Lines: 17

John Emory writes a comparison of a pleiadian transcript and
Christianity.  IMHO John is courageous to do this in such a new age
biased news group.  I share John's views that either the pleiadians
are fakes or Jesus Christ was a fake.  It is impossible to have both
accounts true at the same time.  I would have a tendancy to believe
Jesus Christ over the pleiadians since at least Jesus made Himself
known to more than just a few channelers and actually dwelt among men.
Whether or not you believe in Him as the Messiah, you cannot dispute
His historical existance while the scientific proof of alien life has
not yet been substantiated.

David Anderson
[e-mail]

BTW  send all flames directly to me instead of posting them to the
news group.  That will increase the signal to noise ratio and allow me
to answer everyone personally.
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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 02:36:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 36
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
>[e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
>
>>>The BIG controversy is in Low-freqeunyc (50-70 Hz) fields, not high
>>>frequency effects.  Those are well known.  For example, beam a 100Watt
>>>signal at 2.5 GHz at a person, and they cook!.
>
>>    Untrue.  Basal metabolism is 75W, and a healthy human can
>>easily shed an order of magnitude more than that as waste heat (perhaps
>>shedding a garment or too in the process).  There's NOTHING magical
>>about 2.5 GHz, except that it was available for use when microwave
>>ovens appeared on the market.
>
>    It's the most convenient water-absorption peak for MW engr.
>    BTW, I didn't ever mention how long you would be subjected to
>the energy, did I now.
>

     If you are going to make such an assertion, please explain
     the nature of the 'peak'.

     Also, assuming that you meant 75 W deposition, this greatly exceeds
     the occupational limits (in reasonably-sized humans) of 0.4 W/kg
     whole-body SAR recommended by the International Radiation Protection
     Association (IRPA) (1983).  In all likelyhood, the only thing that
     one would have to worry about short-term is resonances cooking important
     things like eyeballs.

                                    dale bass
--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Jun 92 22:06:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 29

In a message to All <10 May 92 18:38> Gary Stollman wrote:

 GS> ... not bothered by my past except for Budd Hopkins, who
 GS> reasonably was slightly taken aback when I told him who I was and what I
 GS> had done...I don;t know if I will get
 GS> any help from him in getting my book
 GS> published, but who knows what will happen in two more weeks

Don't count on it!

 GS> ...You will all
 GS> probably have a fit when you see me on Nightline...hehe...

So will Ted Koppel and his producer!!!

Seriously, Gary, wasn't that YOU on Nightline in February?

 GS> This is from
 GS>     [e-mail]
 GS> who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet

... But is exceeding obnoxious, nonetheless...



--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Pease)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jun 92 16:54:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. USA
Lines: 44
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1
Nntp-Posting-Host: amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Edward Heinemann) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes:>
>>
>>At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
>>with what these Pledians have to say, so either:
>>
>>a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
>>    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
>>    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
>>    ever before in history.
>>
>>b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
>>    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
>>    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).
>>
>>I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
>>a shred of veracity.
>
>
>Or: (c) The Bible AND the Pleiadian text are BOTH fiction.
>
>Far more likely in my book...
>

Or: (d) The Bible AND the Pleiadian text are BOTH truth. One needs to
    achieve a certain state of awareness to see that they are
    both true in that the Bible and the Pleiadian are filtered
    through ones own beliefs and this filtering is what causes
    them to appear different.

    For example, in the Bible, Jesus said the you must be like
    him to enter the kingdom of Heaven and I interpret this to
    mean I need to cultivate that same level of consciousness
    the Jesus has and that state is where I am one with God.
    Then the Pleiadian's focus on cultivating a "higher" state
    of consciousness and I interpret this to mean the same
    thing as Jesus stated.


Phil Pease

My witty disclaimer - everything I perceive, through either sensory or
extrasensory means, has been filtered to such an extent that you had better not
attempt to attribute anything I say to anyone else.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!torn.onet.on.ca!cunews!wcsgin
From: [e-mail] (Bernie Gingras)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 02:28:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 15
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(John Emery) writes:
>From the Pleiadian transcripts:
>
>>       As you learn how to utilize the rules here, then you would be changing
>>the game for all of the other players. As you all become awake, you will be
>>bucking the system. And you will be showing that the rules indeed
>>have changed
>>and that even the most minute forms of consciousness have figured out that
>>they are like the gods.
>
>Please pardon my interrogation and my concern, but is this not considered
>rebellion?  Going against the God to become "like the gods".

          Actually, it sounds a lot like Brockian Ultra-Cricket :-)
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 01:43:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Richard D Warner) writes:
> >
> > P.S. Ever try substituting greys for chicken in soup? I'm thinking
> > they may have the cold remedy same as chicken. Greys are cheaper too.
> >
>  I've noticed that they taste a lot like chicken, but are less messy
> to work with.  We have a little coop in the back yard where we have two
> good breeders, and keep at any given time five or six more.  We only
> have to feed them twice a week, and they don't make any noise at all.


They must breed easily enough, they are everywhere. I hadn't had to
feed 'em yet, I just nab 'em in the rabbit traps.
I freeze them for later use(at this rate, I may need a walkin
type industrial freezer).
Breeding them like chickens might be a good business for third world
nations where feed grains and such may be limited.
Anyway, food for thought:-)

barry
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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Invasion!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Jun 92 13:21:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:30163/150.0
Lines: 14

It turns out I am from New Jersey...Was born in Elizabeth...But
sadly, very sadly, I was dragged to LA when 10 and my life
ruined...If you don't believe people here would follow someone
around for no good reason other than evilness, you should spend some
time here...Like this convicted murderer a judge sentenced to spend
one year in LA...I was froced to spend two years here, and it was
like being in hell...Besides the 15 when I was growing up...You
should consider that other people may not be as completely wacko or
as supremely overconfident as they appear to you...Give my regards
to the snow...It and me are old friends...
--
Gary Stollman - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!pacbell.com!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!bluemoon!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 10:08:48 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS Login)
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
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     This is not MY story, although it has a lot to do with me, as
it is the story of my girlfriend, Joan McCaughey.  Her experiences
DO involve UFOs, but on a much more intense scale than any of my
UFO experiences.
     When Joan was about 3 years old, her real parents left her
with some people who took their places, in name only.  She was the
heir to the Vaseline fortune, and these people murdered her real
mother, and so she was left with these imposters and their name.
She has no idea of her real identity.  She has three birth
certificates, one of which I was able to ascertain was forged,
and one was stolen from her safe deposit box at her bank.
     Up until only a very few years ago, she was unable to
remember anything of her childhood, due to the shock of being
abandoned and beaten over the head with a hammer repeatedly by her
"mother", causing skull fractures.  Her "father" punched her in
the stomach while a child, in a fit of rage, causing her to lose an
ovary.  These people were imposters and murderers and worse.  Her
"father" was an Indian from a tribe in Oregon, and her "mother"
was not married to him legally.  They got all their money after
they got Joan.  So much money you could not believe, as I have
gone through the records in downtown LA, and there are literally
hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property all over LA
county.  A lawyer friend of my sister is currently trying to
obtain it for Joan.
     Joan's "father" was a civil engineer who worked at the
department of public works in Pasadena, California for many years.
He built secret underground water supplies that only the rich and
powerful knew about, in case of germ or atomic war.  He was so
brilliant that even when near death and in a wheelchair, the
Canadian government flew him to Canada to work on secret projects
for them.  He also led a double life under a different name.  He
was in charge of building the Alaskan Highway in Canada.
     While standing on the porch of a house they owned in
Altadena, California, in 1957, a UFO came slowly down the canyon
without a sound.  It was only about 20 feet away from Joan at the
closest approach.  She says it was a flying saucer, with windows
all around, and floated slightly above the ground.  The people in
the other houses saw it also, and they were terrified.  When the
man she calls Dad saw this, he laughed, and said to her, "Now
that's a secret undercover government project!  That's man-made!"
She had no reason to doubt him as he worked for the government,
and she had seen technical drawings of UFOs on his drafting board
many times.  The object floated slowly over the canyon, farther
and farther away until it went out of sight.
     After that, UFOs would come around Joan's window almost every
night for many years.  They emitted a bright white light into the
room, so bright you could read by it.  She also would hear voices
of men talking outside her window, saying things related to her
past, and about her.  She believes these men came from the UFOs,
and her "father" owned all the land in the canyons where they came
from.  She was told later that her real family came from a very
distinguished bloodline, from "the other side."
     During the years as a child, Joan was moved from place to
place around California.  When neighbors in San Diego complained
to the school board that she was being denied an education by her
parents, her "parents" up and moved away to another location.
Presents would come frequently for her, but the "woman" would take
them all away from her every time.  One such present, a wagon with
her name on it, probably her real name, was taken by her "mother",
who filed the name off with a chisel before giving it to her.
Even the dates on the few pictures she has of her "family" have
been erased from them.  She has no idea of how old she really is.
     Her "father" knew how to use dowsing to find water and gold
and other things.  He used a series of numbers that Joan can
remember, divided by 12, to build things, like UFOs.  The numbers
also mark out the distances to the sun and the moon and the
planets, and even the rotation of the Earth.  Before I did MY
thing, I mailed a list of these numbers to myself from a post
office near the studio just in case I would be arrested.
     Her "mother" was a monster, and received Social Security
benefits for Joan being disabled, and bought diamond earrings with
it while Joan walked the streets and lay in the gutters.  Joan
helped herself out of her situation, and gradually became
independent, although without any kind of formal education.  She
has the math level of a third grader, although her reading skills
are somewhat better.  She is unable to learn, due to the problems
heaped on her by her situation, and collects SSI.  She is trying
to get her fathers benefits for being disabled as a child, but we
don't know about that yet.  We are counting on the property coming
through.
     Everything she got while under these imposters care was taken
away from her.  For that reason, she was afraid to go to see the
"woman" when she died.  She got lost on the bus, and when she got
there, she was dead, and her giggilo was talking to her dead body.
The nurse brought her a bag, but the giggilo grabbed it and ran
away with it.  Maybe the old bat finally decided to leave her
something or her real identity.  A few years ago, someone left a
envelope for Joan at the downtown post office in LA, but she
didn't have the money to get there, and when she eventually got
there, she was told the woman who had left the package came and
took it back.
     Some life, huh???  When her "dad" died, his watch stopped at
the exact second, and Joan felt an incredible warmth coming from
him, which surrounded her all over.  He had made a will leaving
her to be taken care of, but the woman burned the will and forged
another one, giving her control over everything.  All that phony
family had fake birth certificates, and fake ids and fake
everything.
     When I checked the downtown property records, I discovered
some pretty wierd sounding names listed on the deeds.  Names you
couldn't even pronounce.  All her "family" had the rare blood
type, O-negative.  Except for her.
     Some people came by to see her several times, who she calls
the "psychic people", who told her things about her past she never
knew.  I believe these people were with the CIA or something
similar.  They were able to get into the sealed records downtown
somehow, and had IDs that regular police wouldn't touch them with,
some kind of CIA type IDs.  They are into witchcraft, and had
knowledge that amazes even me.  During the past LA riots, Joan
went to San Bernadino to be with her niece, who isn't really her
niece, but a girl she raised since a child by herself, who was
having a baby.  While there, these "psychic people" came by again,
and indicated that Joan would soon be coming into great wealth,
and made it clear that they felt they deserved a part of this.
The phone Joan called me from out there was torn down and the
place boarded up.  She knows all about the "phone-tappers."
     Well, a sad life, but one brimming with mystery!  We are
going on a trip to Yosemite National Park in a few days and I just
felt I had to put this into words before we left.  I hope this
helps convince others of my truthfulness.

          Gary Stollman



 This is from
     [e-mail]
who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet
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From: [e-mail] (brown todd f)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Emory's posts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 13:21:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Lines: 39

[e-mail] (David Anderson) writes:

>John Emory writes a comparison of a pleiadian transcript and
>Christianity.  IMHO John is courageous to do this in such a new age
>biased news group.  I share John's views that either the pleiadians
>are fakes or Jesus Christ was a fake.  It is impossible to have both
>accounts true at the same time.  I would have a tendancy to believe
>Jesus Christ over the pleiadians since at least Jesus made Himself
>known to more than just a few channelers and actually dwelt among men.
>Whether or not you believe in Him as the Messiah, you cannot dispute
>His historical existance while the scientific proof of alien life has
>not yet been substantiated.

>David Anderson
>[e-mail]


Dear Dave,

You christians just don't have a clue do you?  You insist on remaining
in your ivory tower of delusions.  You continue your diatribe about
devils and demons and worshipping some God 'outside' of yourself, or
worse yet - a man.  You fail to recognize your own responsiblity - I
guess is this way you truly represent the childlike in religious
thought.  Most of you need to be where you are.

You are like children crying in the wilderness.

Worse yet, you constantly seek to interfere in the affairs of others.
To proselytize seems to be your one passion.  To invade another's
psychic space in the way you do does not go without it's reward...

Historical Jesus was no fake.  Unfortunately, men like Paul have all
but silenced his intent.  You still have no clue about the Christ do
you?  Of course you don't.  You religion bans you from not only
knowledge about the truth, but personal experience as well.  You
represent the sad existence of living off the experience of others.
A flock of seagulls scavaging off of the droppings of those who
really know who to fly.  Oh the vicarious life of the lemmings...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!pacbell.com!decwrl!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 14:45:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 32

OK, using some astronomy software I obtained the "heliocentric longitude"
of all the planets for 5-5-2000. It is as follows:

   Mercury     25 degrees
   Venus       20
   Earth      224
   Mars        71
   Jupiter     47
   Saturn      50
   Uranus     318
   Neptune    303
   Pluto      249

Now, take a sheet of paper and lay a 360-degree protractor on it. Put a
dot in the middle: that's the sun. Now put the appropriate letter of
the alphabet at the appropriate degree marking to indicate the position
of each of the major planets at that time.

Now, tell me how that represents any "alignment"!!!!!!!!!!!

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
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From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <z60k8m=[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 17:17:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 30

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>OK, using some astronomy software I obtained the "heliocentric longitude"
>of all the planets for 5-5-2000. It is as follows:
>
>   Mercury     25 degrees
>   Venus       20
>   Earth      224
>   Mars        71
>   Jupiter     47
>   Saturn      50
>   Uranus     318
>   Neptune    303
>   Pluto      249
>
>Now, take a sheet of paper and lay a 360-degree protractor on it. Put a
>dot in the middle: that's the sun. Now put the appropriate letter of
>the alphabet at the appropriate degree marking to indicate the position
>of each of the major planets at that time.
>
>Now, tell me how that represents any "alignment"!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, if you look at the paper edge-on, they are all lined up.
--

Anson Kennedy
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

                  "If I had been the Virgin Mary, I would have said 'No.'"
                                      -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 19:05:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>I hope this >helps convince others of my truthfulness.
>
>          Gary Stollman
>




        Gary,

        Nothing  you   say  or  write  will  convince  anyone  that  your
        dillusions and anything but dillusions.

        Steve Food_for_the_Grays
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Anza,Calif sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 19:21:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
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Hello Anybody;
Has anyone done any follow-up work on the Anza,Calif.sightings? In reference to the 5/25/92 showing of the show 'SIGHTINGS" I have sent a letter to the producers of the show & have yet to hear back from them.Any information would be helpful.

Thanks ,
Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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From: [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 17:30:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Lines: 75
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes...
>>
>>Don Showen writes:
>>
>>>>    QUESTION: What's the difference between the old rules and new rules?
>>>>    PLEIADIANS: There existed in what you would call biblical times,
>>>>certain entities that came to your planet that were playing.
>>
>>At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
>>with what these Pledians have to say, so either:
>>
>>a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
>>    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
>>    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
>>    ever before in history.
>>
>>b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
>>    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
>>    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).
>>
>>I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
>>a shred of veracity.
>
>Excuse me, but this logical fallacy leaps off the terminal screen.  Why must I
>choose between the Pleiadians and the Christians?  Why can't they _both_
>be liars (or fools, more likely: "Never attribute to malice that which is
>adequately explained by stupidity". - Mark Twain)?

You don't have to.  I really meant to post it from the pleiadian perspective:
Like this:

At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
with what these Pledians have to say, so either:

a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
    ever before in history........

and the Pledians are telling the truth.  I should add that the Pleiadian
seem to show indifference to this great mind game deception the skylords
are pulling...which doesn't say much for the pleiedians view of honesty
and integrity.  Why should we even trust the Pleiedians if they are
for real?  How do they know they aren't having a mind game played on them?

b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).

I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
a shred of veracity.

>Dave Casper
>CERN - Geneva
>[e-mail]

My last comment which should get some controversy (so be it), is at least
there is enough evidence from history to know Jesus walked this earth...
and Jesus had results in a three year ministry.
Unlike the pleiedians, who are 'channeled', how long have
they been around and where are their results?  It could be some
dillusion Barbara (the channeler) is experiencing.

-Arnold
--
____________________________________________________________
Arnold E. Nordeng           Internet:  [e-mail]
Design Engineer
John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
      "If addiction is judged by how long a dumb animal
       will sit pressing a lever to get a 'fix' of
       something, to its own detriment, then I would
       conclude that netnews is far more addictive than
       cocaine."                        -- Rob Stampfli
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From: [e-mail] (Ray Rosch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 19:50:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 27
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6209 alt.conspiracy:15353 sci.skeptic:25099 talk.religion.newage:10354


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>     This is not MY story, although it has a lot to do with me, as
>it is the story of my girlfriend, Joan McCaughey.  Her experiences

.
.
.
.>The phone Joan called me from out there was torn down and the
>place boarded up.  She knows all about the "phone-tappers."
>     Well, a sad life, but one brimming with mystery!  We are
>going on a trip to Yosemite National Park in a few days and I just
>felt I had to put this into words before we left.  I hope this
>helps convince others of my truthfulness.
>
>          Gary Stollman
>


What's so wonderful is that you two have found one another! Will it be
soon be Mr. & Ms. Gary McCaughey-Stollman?  If ever two people deserved one
another it's you and Joan.  Your story has touched my heart in ways I can't
describe. Golly!!!

****
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed do not in any way reflect those of my employer
****
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 19:33:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

> It turns out I am from New Jersey...Was born in Elizabeth...But
> sadly, very sadly, I was dragged to LA when 10 and my life
> ruined...If you don't believe people here would follow someone
> around for no good reason other than evilness, you should spend some
> time here...Like this convicted murderer a judge sentenced to spend
> one year in LA...I was froced to spend two years here, and it was
> like being in hell...Besides the 15 when I was growing up...You
> should consider that other people may not be as completely wacko or
> as supremely overconfident as they appear to you...Give my regards
> to the snow...It and me are old friends...
        Sorta like blank verse, if you stick linefeeds in the apropriate
places....

Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
New Sig File Under Construction-- Light and Compact for your Usenet Pleasure.
"The recent problem with the satellite retrieval managed to prove one thing;
DeVries graduates really _do_ work for NASA."
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From: [e-mail] (Jonathan R. Ferro)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <0e=[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 22:19:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:15358 sci.skeptic:25118 talk.religion.newage:10357 alt.alien.visitors:6211
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

[e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
> [deleted]

Hilarious, as always.  Keep up the good work!

I hear there's a tall tales contest that takes place up in Paul Bunyan
country every once in a while (Montana, maybe?).  This would certainly
place high.

--
Jon Ferro        MIT Transportation Modelling Research Center (TMRC)
[e-mail]    "We can hack it!"
SGNTR VRS VRSN 3.1B: Strppd nd cmprssd fr qckr trnsmssn! nfct yrs tdy!
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From: [e-mail] (  911  Thomas O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: TEST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 22:57:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 2


                  blah blah blah
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From: [e-mail] (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Whatever happened to Toby?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 12:55:51 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 10
Originator: [e-mail]

Toby promised to bring me a tape of a BBC radio program about UFOs.  He
never showed.  Obviously the aliens have taken him.  If we ever get him back
I'll let you know how bad they messed him up.

+----Great Quotes of Our Time-----------------------------------------+
| Any month whose name contains the letters A, E, or U is the proper  |
| time for chocolate.                                                 |
+-------------------------------------------Sandra Boynton------------+
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England  (44)061-275-6033   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Anza,Calif sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 04:21:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Central Michigan University
Lines: 28

i
I saw the show to which you were reffering, but to tell you the
truth, it was too sensationalistic for me to take seriously.
If I remember correctly, at the end they did show what could
technically be described as a UFO (Key word being Unidentified)
but what I saw was an object which registered on a 'starlight' scope and
moved from the horizon overhead in a straight line.  They had radar
working, but didn't show that on the show.  They also had their regular
cameras, but either didn't film the object, or didn't edit into the
broadcast.

This stuff is getting beside the point.  My original intention in
writing was to express how displeased I was in the show.  Personally,
I found it very sensationalistic and no better than the 'Weekly World
News' in convincing people that E.T.s are exammining us.  As I
recall the show, it started out with a description of the Anza site,
then talked about people being abducted.  After that, it continued
with people being rapped by aliens and the Soviet Phobos project.
Finally it ended with the actual 'sighting' which didn't convince me
because they didn't use any other data besides their 'starlight'
video to support their claims they saw a UFOs.  I wish that they would
have taken the time to create a 'doccumentary' type project explaining
their methods and examining the evidence after it had been collected.
Perhaps then I would be able to believe their 'sighting' but the
terse way in which it was presented didn't overcome my skepticism.

just my $0.02 while I wait for my data to come back
bob
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 08:02:25 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 9

Dear Gary

I'd love to see another series of The Twilight Zone. Thought of applying as a
script-writer?

Mike

Ps. What the hell was a technical drawing of a UFO doing on a CIVIL engineer's
    board???
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ufos On Video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 00:16:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 36


 > As I recall, the video shows a number of people looking to the sky.  The
 > videographer then shifts the camera to what the people were looking at
 > -- a number (5?) of red lights moving erratically in and out of the
 > frame.  Nothing spectacular, but clearly the people watching the scene
 > were excited, owing to their exclamations of amazement.  The camera
 > follows the red objects so that a nearby house comes into view.  We then
 > see a something resembling a small person, albeit with the requisite
 > gangly limbs, move in silhouette across a second floor window outside
 > the house on a ledge.  What was remarkable about the video was that
 > presumably the person shooting the footage did not know he had also
 > caught this thing in the window -- he was still shooting the sky.
 >
 > I don't remember this ever being shown again on television.  Nor do I
 > recall having read any follow-up reporting.  Can anyone fill in the
 > blanks for me?  Where did it happen?  Was it ever disproven?  What did
 > the ufo press say (if anything) about it?

That was in Greenville, South Carolina on October 31, 1989.  It was filmed by
a woman who not only got a picture of lights hovering overhead, but an
airplane flying across the sky apparently over the lights.  When she lowered
the camera to change shoulders (or something like that), the camera panned
the side of the house in time to see something small moving across the window
ledge of the bathroom.  It appeared on film to be bi-pedal.  Our group,
ParaNet, did some followup on it after it occurred and were told that MUFON
was investigating it, but as with most everything else that goes into MUFON,
nothing came out.  So, as far as I know, there has never been any followup on
it.  Perhaps one of the MUFONites lurking about here could find out from the
Supreme Commander and let us know(?) :-)

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Coyt D Watters)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ufos On Video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 13:35:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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Lines: 50
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > As I recall, the video shows a number of people looking to the sky.  The
> > videographer then shifts the camera to what the people were looking at
> > -- a number (5?) of red lights moving erratically in and out of the
> > frame.  Nothing spectacular, but clearly the people watching the scene
> > were excited, owing to their exclamations of amazement.  The camera
> > follows the red objects so that a nearby house comes into view.  We then
> > see a something resembling a small person, albeit with the requisite
> > gangly limbs, move in silhouette across a second floor window outside
> > the house on a ledge.  What was remarkable about the video was that
> > presumably the person shooting the footage did not know he had also
> > caught this thing in the window -- he was still shooting the sky.
> >
> > I don't remember this ever being shown again on television.  Nor do I
> > recall having read any follow-up reporting.  Can anyone fill in the
> > blanks for me?  Where did it happen?  Was it ever disproven?  What did
> > the ufo press say (if anything) about it?
>
>That was in Greenville, South Carolina on October 31, 1989.  It was filmed by
>a woman who not only got a picture of lights hovering overhead, but an
>airplane flying across the sky apparently over the lights.  When she lowered
>the camera to change shoulders (or something like that), the camera panned
>the side of the house in time to see something small moving across the window
>ledge of the bathroom.  It appeared on film to be bi-pedal.  Our group,
>ParaNet, did some followup on it after it occurred and were told that MUFON
>was investigating it, but as with most everything else that goes into MUFON,
>nothing came out.  So, as far as I know, there has never been any followup on
>it.  Perhaps one of the MUFONites lurking about here could find out from the
>Supreme Commander and let us know(?) :-)
>
>Mike

I did see this video on television (Columbus, Channel 4), but I can not
remember if it was the local news or one of the syndicated "trash tv"
programs (i.e. Hard Copy).

There was little comment, only the general information like the above, but
the tape was played twice in realtime, then slow motion with a circle to
point out the window to watch, and then a freeze frame and blowup of
the window.  The blind was apparently down, but the silloutte (sp?) was
strange looking.

It was done at the end of a broadcast.  I'm pretty sure it was Hard Copy,
because I was suprised that there was not all the sensationalism about
the story which they normally use.


--
Coyt D. Watters in the Role of : [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!pacbell.com!mips!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ucbvax!APOLLO.HP.COM!nelson_p
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: re  Invasion!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 14:56:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 13


From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)

>like being in hell...Besides the 15 when I was growing up...You
>should consider that other people may not be as completely wacko or
>as supremely overconfident as they appear to you...Give my regards
>to the snow...It and me are old friends...

  I don't think the "snow" he's talking about is the kind that
  falls from the sky in winter . . .


---peter
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rice!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Summary: There is too a line up!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 17:37:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>OK, using some astronomy software I obtained the "heliocentric longitude"
>of all the planets for 5-5-2000. It is as follows:
>
>   Mercury     25 degrees
>   Venus       20
>   Earth      224
>   Mars        71
>   Jupiter     47
>   Saturn      50
>   Uranus     318
>   Neptune    303
>   Pluto      249
>
>Now, take a sheet of paper and lay a 360-degree protractor on it. Put a
>dot in the middle: that's the sun. Now put the appropriate letter of
>the alphabet at the appropriate degree marking to indicate the position
>of each of the major planets at that time.
>
>Now, tell me how that represents any "alignment"!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't look at the heliocentric longitude, look at the geocentric
longitude!!! From the newest version of the program Astrolog, a
geocentric chart cast for 5-5-2000 at midnight GMT at Greenwich,
England shows:

Astrolog (2.20) chart for 5 May 2000 0:00 (+0:00 GMT)   0'00W 51'30N
Body  Locat. Ret. Decl. Rul.      House  Rul. Veloc.    Placidus Houses.

Sun : 14Tau49   +00 00' (-) [ 3rd house] [-] +0.969
Moon: 26Tau04   +04 25' (e) [ 4th house] [R] ______
Merc: 09Tau55   +00 42' (-) [ 3rd house] [R] +2.107
Venu: 04Tau47   +01 12' (R) [ 3rd house] [-] +1.231
Mars: 00Gem51   +00 25' (-) [ 4th house] [d] +0.701
Jupi: 17Tau08   +00 52' (-) [ 4th house] [e] +0.238
Satu: 19Tau41   +02 00' (-) [ 4th house] [F] +0.128

I've excluded the outer planets beyond Saturn since they, unlike all
the above, aren't visible to the naked eye. Note that *all* the
planets all the way out to Saturn, including the Sun and Moon, fall
within a narrow 30 degree orb (all in Taurus, except Mars leaked less
than a degree into the next sign, Gemini). Considering 360 degrees in
the sky, all these visible planets in such a small patch of sky is
quite a phenomenon, and if it weren't for the Sun being among all the
others, the night sky then would be a cool time for some stargazing.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unix!clipper!mgm
From: [e-mail] (Mike Marfell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Keywords: Too much LSD, obviously
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 15:42:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6220 sci.skeptic:25170 alt.conspiracy:15366 talk.religion.newage:10362

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Boerp) writes:
> [e-mail] (Eddie Saxe) writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
> >>        Anyone left who doesn't believe me now????
>
> >Me.
> >Anyone else?
>
> Yep, me too!

Count me in!
--
Mike Marfell    * BaySat *     | "No matter where you go, |   Space for rent.
Intergraph-Home of the clipper!|      there you are"      |       CHEAP!!
[e-mail]   |          -Buckaru Bonzi  |  Please, no Sun ads

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!paperboy.osf.org!hsdndev!morrow.stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!marcush
From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Emory's posts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 15:21:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (brown todd f) writes:
>[e-mail] (David Anderson) writes:
>
>>John Emory writes a comparison of a pleiadian transcript and
>>Christianity.  IMHO John is courageous to do this in such a new age
>>biased news group.  I share John's views that either the pleiadians
>>are fakes or Jesus Christ was a fake.  It is impossible to have both
>> [...]
>>David Anderson
>>[e-mail]
>
>
>Dear Dave,
>
>You christians just don't have a clue do you?  You insist on remaining
>in your ivory tower of delusions.  You continue your diatribe about
>devils and demons and worshipping some God 'outside' of yourself, or
>worse yet - a man.  You fail to recognize your own responsiblity - I
>guess is this way you truly represent the childlike in religious
>thought.  Most of you need to be where you are.
> [...]

Up until now this was quite an interesting discussion. But your resort
to insults only shows that you have even less than a clue than as you
say the Christians do. Could you please refrain from posting insulting
articles in the future and instead try to come up with some arguments
supporting your opinion? If you can't find any arguments, I'm sorry
but then I won't listen to you.

Marcus
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ucbvax!STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ATTENTION GEORGE GREEN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 22:48:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 4

Please contact Len Bucuvalas at [e-mail]

Respectfully,
Len Bucuvalas
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 06:54:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Mail to News Gateway
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6223 alt.conspiracy:15373 sci.skeptic:25181 talk.religion.newage:10367

We are all very glad that you have found a SO with whom you have so
much in common.  Here's wishing you years of paranoia together.  Keep
the stories coming.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Th'HOSTESS FACTORY is closin' down and I just heard ZASU
 |warren@      PITTS has been DEAD for YEARS.. (sniff)
/ nysernet.org
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!cujo!cc.curtin.edu.au!sclarkejl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 05:24:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Lines: 14

ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
I have been trapped on this Plannet for 50 year, the last 19 of
which I have been using the body of one James Clarke to take on human
form.
My people are at war and need me if anyone can help me get back to Delgon
send me an E-mail.
If you would like more information about my plannet send me an E-mail.

I have two E-mail accounts, the other account which will give you a reply very
quickly is :- [e-mail]

Thus sayth Jasa Alpitron (Emperor of Delgon and the Stacus System)
24 day of the month of Hillos 7805
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Summary: Stand Up And Be Counted, Remember Your Heritage, Accept Your Destiny!
Keywords: Antahkarana
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 01:10:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 190
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10368 alt.alien.visitors:6225 sci.skeptic:25187


        """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
        |        -->  GLOBAL INDEPENDENCE DAY  <--        |
        |             Stand Up And Be Counted             |
        | "Remember Your Heritage -- Accept Your Destiny" |
        |              Saturday July 4, 1992              |
        |         Declare Spiritual Independence!         |
        |                                                 |
        """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

--

     This is a day of celebration of our independence from all of the
constraints that bind us in any way and do not allow us to be the
glorious beings we are meant to be. We are recommending old-fashioned
picnics in the park, family reunions and general community gatherings.
This is a day of fun and joyful events for all. Inquiries are invited
and packets are available to help you plan your day.

     A wave of light from torches and other forms of light shining
skyward will proclaim our unity and Oneness before and with each
other, our elder family who has gone before us, and our Creator. The
lights will be lit at 9pm your local time sequentially around the
globe. Spirit has initiated this activity as a way of activating light
workers on the planet into a planned activity that can be networked
around the globe in a short period of time.

     This global celebration is for everyone of any belief system who
believes in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all
planetary citizens. It does not matter which of the great spiritual
teachers a person or group follows. We are all planetary citizens.

     This is an activity to help us reach out, reach up, come out of
the closet and remember our heritage and accept our destiny as global
and universal citizens under God, by whatever name the Creator is
known. We acknowledge that we belong to a greater life stream than is
visible to our normal vision. We are part of the family of man and the
family of God.

     The time is past when any of Earth's citizenry can act alone
without serious consequences being shared by the totality of the
Creation. We acknowledge that there is a guiding force behind the
events that are manifesting on the planet, and they are a part of what
the prophets of old called, "the end times."

     We believe at the end of "the end" times there can be peace on
Earth as man resumes his rightful place in the cosmic scheme and that
can happen now. We acknowledge that there is assistance available to
us from these higher beings. They will avail themselves to us to
assist us in healing our planet. They are not our rescuers of saviors,
but merely our elder brothers and sisters.

--

     Antahkarana the Star People Connection will be celebrating Global
Independence Day, July 4, at Golden Gardens Park on Shilshole Bay in
Seattle, from 5:00 in the afternoon to 9:00 in the evening. This group
is dedicated to raising spiritual consciousness on Earth through
personal transformation in preparation for personal and planetary
ascension into higher vibratory realms.

     Global Independence Day will be a declaration of spiritual
independence with a worldwide focus, as a natural outgrowth of the
great ideas of spiritual freedom embodied in the words of the
Declaration of Independence. This is a day of opportunity for all
people everywhere who have a commitment to spiritual freedom and love
and peace to come out of the closet, stand up, and be counted.

     If you are a person who knows that you have experienced direct
communication with Angels, extraterrestrial intelligences, or one or
more ascended human teachers or prophets, but you have been hesitant
to speak openly, we want to invite you to come and join us. If you
simply love spiritual freedom, love and peace, we want to invite you
to come and enjoy yourself.

     At 9:00pm we will hold a light ceremony proceeded and accompanied
by prayer and spiritual invocation. While we are conducting our
ceremonies at Golden Gardens, other groups will be holding similar
events around the world.

     Proceeding the ceremonies, the gathering from 5:00 on will be a
general picnic. Bring your own food, to eat, and share, with friends
and family, and participate in games, and generally have a good old
fashioned Fourth of July. If group activities do not appeal to you,
please feel free to celebrate in your own back yard, with family and
friends.

--          ABOUT ANTAHKARANA, THE STAR PEOPLE CONNECTION          --

                     ** Statement of Purpose **

     Antahkarana is an emissary to planet Earth from the Brotherhood
of Light in service to the Creator, to inform humanity concerning the
forthcoming changes and the assistance being offered by the
Brotherhood to bring peace to the planet. Antahkarana acts as a
planetary bridge to the metaphysical, spiritual, religious, business
and general communities. This bridging is to be done through the
dissemination of all available information concerning the years of
planetary and human transformation. We will be gathering and
communicating information received from the Spiritual Hierarchy,
Angelic Kingdom, and Intergalactic Confederation. We will be sharing
this information in all ways that are available to reach the general
public. We will be establishing branches of the organization globally
for these purposes.

** The Principle Purposes and Activities of Antahkarana are: **

o  Star People Communication Clearinghouse

   The primary method of communication used by Extraterrestrial (ET)
   civilizations is mental telepathy. Today thousands of people all over
   the world are receiving these "communications" through meditation,
   dreams and prayer. Antahkarana serves, in part, to validate these
   space messages and further communicate vital messages to our
   membership, other networking centers and the general public. We are,
   also, very interested in helping people learn their own discernment
   process. With the tremendous wealth of information being brought to
   our attention, Antahkarana is effectively an information center for
   spiritual knowledge offered by advanced Extraterrestrial civilizations
   to all inhabitants of planet Earth.

o  Public Education and Awareness

   Antahkarana conducts workshops, classes, etc. on an ongoing basis to
   inform and educate the public of the existence, intentions and
   activities of the Star People. We believe it is essential for Earth
   People to understand why we are being visited by Extraterrestrial
   beings in ever increasing numbers. Workshops and other activities are
   regularly in our newsletter.

o  Support Groups

   We recognize that Space People contactees, and those attempting to
   work with the space people, often receive no support from family,
   friends and society and are often subject to ridicule and even
   harassment. We seek to develop a circle of Space People activists who
   can openly share their experiences in an atmosphere of trust and
   openness.

o  Ongoing Projects

   We look forward to the time when advanced ET civilizations and their
   ambassadors will be welcomed openly by an enlightened public on Earth.
   To this end, we of Antahkarana are willing to undertake promising new
   approaches and projects that would serve to accomplish our goals and
   objectives.

** Antahkarana Members Hold a Common Belief in These Principles: **

1. The entire Universe consists of at least 12 parallel dimensions or
   worlds. The untrained human is conscious of only one of these worlds.
   There are various levels of spiritual development throughout the other
   worlds, and discernment is very important when choosing to interact
   with these beings.

2. Travel thorough Space, Time and across Worlds (transdimensional
   travel) is a normal activity for advanced civilizations who are
   visiting Earth.

3. We recognize that scientific and spiritual knowledge are but
   different expressions of the same basic universal knowledge. We
   realize that the only way to fully understand the mysteries of the
   Extraterrestrial and "flying saucer" experience, as well as the origin
   and destiny of life, is to incorporate both scientific and spiritual
   knowledge in our work.

4. Life forms found on Earth today probably did not originate on
   Earth. Earth was colonized by civilizations from other Star Systems.
   The course of history on Earth has been greatly influenced by ET
   civilizations dating back to antiquity.

5. The course of history is again being influenced by Star People who
   are now living and working among us. Many of these beings are in
   prominent social positions to aid in bringing in the New Age of Peace
   and Enlightenment and to prevent the destruction of Earth before a
   higher Cosmic Plan can be reached.

6. Spiritual and social knowledge on Earth has not kept pace with
   scientific development. The people of Earth do not possess the wisdom
   necessary to ensure survival into the 21st century. It is, therefore,
   essential for the masses on Earth to willingly accept the assistance
   offered by these advanced civilizations who are of a higher spiritual
   order.

For further information on Global Independence Day or other activities
of Antahkarana, please write: Arasia, Ambassador-at-large, Antahkarana,
The Star People Connection 501 N 36th #140, Seattle, WA 98103,
Telephone [phone].

--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!jyusenkyou!arromdee
From: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Keywords: Antahkarana
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 02:13:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news system)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10369 alt.alien.visitors:6226 sci.skeptic:25190

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>     This is a day of celebration of our independence from all of the
>constraints that bind us in any way and do not allow us to be the
>glorious beings we are meant to be.

You know, I always wanted to fly faster than the speed of light.  The laws of
physics are just constraints after all.
--
Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: [e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!torn.onet.on.ca!cunews!revcan!software.mitel.com!coxm
From: [e-mail] (Michael Cox)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs on video
Message-ID: <11916@coxm>
Date: 4 Jun 92 12:22:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andy Kurtz) writes:
>
>
>The talk about the *recent* Gulfbreeze sighting made me think about
>another video sighting that I saw probably two years ago on network news
[stuff deleted]
>As I recall, the video shows a number of people looking to the sky.  The
>videographer then shifts the camera to what the people were looking at
>-- a number (5?) of red lights moving erratically in and out of the
>frame.  Nothing spectacular, but clearly the people watching the scene
>were excited, owing to their exclamations of amazement.  The camera
>follows the red objects so that a nearby house comes into view.  We then
>see a something resembling a small person, albeit with the requisite
>gangly limbs, move in silhouette across a second floor window outside
>the house on a ledge.  What was remarkable about the video was that
>presumably the person shooting the footage did not know he had also
>caught this thing in the window -- he was still shooting the sky.
>
I beleive that it was on "A Current Affair".  If you watch it closely it looks
more like someone talking on the telephone as they moved from one room to
another room.  The lights in the sky looked like helicopter manoevers to me,
but that's only my opinion.  If the lights had moved very suddenly and at high
speed then I might think otherwise.

What are people going to think if LHX (an experimental) helicopter (very light
and quiet, as can many helicopters can be very quiet) comes to be?  There will
be a new rash of unexplained objects in the sky.  The noise from helicopters
comes from the tail rotor or from the main rotor.  Unless you're very near the
helicopter the only sound you'll hear is from the tail rotor.  LHX is to try
blowing air out the back to substitute for a tail rotor.  So all you'd hear is
a "swooshing" sound.

Michael


--
Michael H. Cox      | "I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for a windshield on the
                    |  freeway."  Genesis -- Lamb lies down on Broadway
Mitel Corporation   |
"Switch me ON"      |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!andromeda.rutgers.edu!mccabe
From: [e-mail] (Chris Mccabe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 05:31:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 3
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6228 alt.conspiracy:15382 sci.skeptic:25199 talk.religion.newage:10371


    Now we know why aliens don't want to make contact with most
    humans.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!ub!dsinc!pitt.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 01:41:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
>I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
                         ^^^^^^

    BY KLONO'S TUNGSTEN TEETH!

    Attention, Lensmen!
    It seems one of the members of that foul and indescribably horrid
race, the Overlords of Delgon, has survived and seeks more of its evil
kind! Prepare to blast it from the ether!

                KIMBALL KINNISON
                Second-Stage Lensman
                Galactic Patrol


    What is it with this group? Take these fantasies to Alt.PROSE,
Stollman, Clarke, what have you. And maybe you could, at the same time,
try to at least find something NEW for your fantasies, like something
which dates from later than 1960?


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!udel!brahms.udel.edu!roby
From: [e-mail] (Scott W Roby)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 07:53:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 62

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>OK, using some astronomy software I obtained the "heliocentric longitude"
>of all the planets for 5-5-2000. It is as follows:
>
>   Mercury     25 degrees
>   Venus       20
>   Earth      224
>   Mars        71
>   Jupiter     47
>   Saturn      50
>   Uranus     318
>   Neptune    303
>   Pluto      249
>
>Now, take a sheet of paper and lay a 360-degree protractor on it. Put a
>dot in the middle: that's the sun. Now put the appropriate letter of
>the alphabet at the appropriate degree marking to indicate the position
>of each of the major planets at that time.
>
>Now, tell me how that represents any "alignment"!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, you have the five naked-eye planets all within a 51-degree arc
on one side of the sun centered near heliocentric longitude 45-degrees.
The Earth is on the other side of the sun (45+180=225), so the arc
containing the five naked-eye planets will be even smaller at the earth.
I would call this a rough alignment, in the same manner that the
roughly 45-degree arc the visible planets fell into a decade ago
was referred to as an alignment.   If you are waiting for the planets to
all line up along a straight line, you've got a very long wait...
Unfortunately, the 5/5/2005 alignment won't be so valuable for planetary
astronomers as the one a decade ago -- this time they are all in
the daytime sky and not the nighttime sky.

Of course, the outer three planets don't count because you can't
see them with the naked eye!  :-)  :-)   :-)  <sarcasm>

I'm afraid to ask why people on this newsgroup are interested in
this rough alignment.  Are we talking "Jupiter Effect"?

The only known effect the planets can exert on the Earth is gravitational
force.  The gravitational force of the moon (due to its proximity in
spite of its puny mass) has the largest effect on the Earth - witness
the ocean tides.  The Sun comes next.  The other eight planets'
gravitational effects on the Earth are small enough to be negligible
on ocean tides (even if they were working in tandem with a *perfect*
line-up.

The gravitational force of the doctor who delivered you at birth is
stronger than the gravitational force of Jupiter (on you) at the same
moment.  Again the proximity of the doctor (roughly a foot or two
distant) compared to that of Jupiter (roughly 400-600 million miles
distant) more than makes up for the much larger mass of Jupiter compared
to the doctor.  One wonders if astrologers would be better
off charting the positions of your mother and her doctor over time to
determine what the fates have in store for you during your life.  :-)


--
Scott W. Roby           *This sentence no verb.*      "No Matter where you go..
Phys.& Astr.Dept.    ///// / /  /  *|*  \  \ \ \\\\\      there you are!"
Univ.of Delaware    ((((( ( (  (  * + *  )  ) ) )))))   -> Buckaroo Banzai
[e-mail] \\\\\ \ \  \  *|*  /  / / /////   *Standard Disclaimer*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!boulder!jtabaska
From: [e-mail] (Jack Tabaska)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <jtabaska.707752357@beagle>
Date: 5 Jun 92 13:52:37 GMT
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Gary and Joan --- please don't reproduce.
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From: [e-mail] (-*_Spikey_Tribble_*-)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 16:31:00 GMT
Organization: Brighton Polytechnic, UK
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6232 sci.physics:21953 sci.skeptic:25209

[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>      If you are going to make such an assertion, please explain
>      the nature of the 'peak'.
>
 It's the frequency absorbed most completely by water in this range. Like
a light frequency between yellow and green is most strongly absorbed by
eyes (colour vision), or a blue frequency (night vision).

>      Also, assuming that you meant 75 W deposition, this greatly exceeds
>      the occupational limits (in reasonably-sized humans) of 0.4 W/kg
>      whole-body SAR recommended by the International Radiation Protection
>      Association (IRPA) (1983).  In all likelyhood, the only thing that
>      one would have to worry about short-term is resonances cooking important
>      things like eyeballs.
>
 It might not just be the heat in question here, but ionization.
--
# Bill Crawford aka *Cuddly_Cactus*  BSc (Hons) Computer Science Year One #
# JANET [e-mail].{unix,vms} | Elsewhere wjmc@{unix,vms}.bton.ac.uk #
#  Have you read your Book In Basic Life Education today ? You should !!  #
#  Any views I express are not necessarily those of Brighton Polytechnic  #
                       "surivorter erutangis a ma I"
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 5/5/2000 line up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 17:29:30 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes...
>
>I've excluded the outer planets beyond Saturn since they, unlike all
>the above, aren't visible to the naked eye. Note that *all* the
>|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

Well, isn't that conveeeenient?
Next time guys, let us know which planets were not supposed to look at
beforehand, hokay?

-Tom R.   milkwy.enet.dec.com!trandolph
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From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 21:02:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>    But seriously, if you did not understand the explanations offered,
>    a more detailed explanation will take some work on your part (i.e.
>    take a physics class, go check out a book on microwave heating).
>    [...]
>    The first [question] was answered several times.
>    The second [question] was answered at
>    least three times to my knowledge.  More detailed health risks
>    can be had by searching in your local public library.  There are
>    a number of standards.  If you are interested, I would be glad
>    to provide a few references.
>
>    However, once again, you will have to do a bit of work for yourself
>    if you have not understood the explanations offered.

You are right, I think we can bring this thread to an end now. The
explanations offered have been very enlightening and if one looks at
them altogether, sufficient to guarantee understanding on my side.
Thanks again for the patience of anyone who offered explanations.

Marcus
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 20:40:12 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.
>>>
>>>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>>>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>>> [...]
>>>from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>>>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>>>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>>
>>    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
>>    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
>>    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
>>    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with
>
>I don't quite understand. Do you agree with the previous poster that
>there is no surface heating or do you disagree? And why would the
>surface heating be amzing? It would of course, if water were
>absolutely absorbing but my claim is that it only partially absorbs
>microwaves. Thus, you do have surface heating, but it need not be amazing.

    To be precise, there is volumetric heating 'near' the surface in
    microwave ovens.  If there were a absorption peak, there would most likely
    be heating very very near the surface (maybe even ablative).  There
    is a big difference in degree.  And of course the dielectric absorbs
    microwaves.  There would be no heating otherwise.  It is just that
    we were discussing whether something 'special' occurs at 2.45 GHz
    that enables microwave ovens to work only at that frequency.  In fact,
    the same phenomena that happen at 2.45 happen at 0.9, 6.5 etc.

    You seem to be confusing dielectric absorption with the peaking that
    we were discussing, they are two different, but related phenomena.

>>    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
>>    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
>                         ^^^^^^^^
>>    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
>>    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
>>    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
>>    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply dielectric
>>    heating.
>
>Are you sure this is always a constant? For ideal dielectrics it would
>be, but in the real world isn't the dielectric "constant"
>frequency-dependent? I don't claim a sharp peak but some "hills" and
>"valleys".

     No it is not constant, it is frequency dependent, but it is still
     called a 'constant'.  Perhaps 'coefficient' would be better, but I
     do not make up the terminology.

     Also, if you understand this you should easily see the point.  There
     are no 'peaks and valleys' in the curve for dielectric 'constant'
     for most ordinary things shoved into microwaves between at least
     0.9 and 7 GHz.  The curve varies quite smoothly.  The peaks generally
     come at higher frequencies.

>Also, I don't quite see the difference between absorption heating and
>heating in general. I guess, it depends on the definition. Heating
>always means energy transfer. Energy is being transfered from the
>source, which heats, to the sink, which is being heated. Thus, the
>sink absorbs energy. Every type of heating involves absorption in some
>way.

     No one said there was not absorption. There is.  It is just that there
     is no absorption PEAK.

>>    The loss tangent  and dielectric constant for glass and ceramics is
>>    much much lower than water and other biological materials (not zero
>>    and this is a problem in experiments in nuclear heating simulations
>>    in my work with lower loss fluids than water).  Similarly, fat
>>    has a bunch of salty water in it, this is a large contributor
>>    to its ability to absorb microwaves of the appropriate wavelength.
>
>Aha, so you do agree with me that there is some absorption which is
>frequency dependent. If I interpret you correctly, we differ in what
>exactly absorbs the microwaves. Since you are much more expert than I
>am, I tend to believe you that it is the salty water.

     No we differ in the fact that we are discussing different things.

>>    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
>>    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
>>    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
>>    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
>>    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
>>    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
>>    we are discussing.
>
>Maybe this is where all this "Hydrogen absorbs microwaves"
>misunderstanding comes from. Your description can very well be
>interpreted by the naive reader as "microwaves give Hydrogen atoms a
>little push and thus excite the matter. Excitation is equivalent to
>heat and this is the way microwave ovens work. Why Hydrogen? Well its
>the lightest element and the poor, heavy working microwaves look for
>the easiest excitable atoms and Hydrogen atoms probably wiggle best at
>microwave frequency." A typical example of combining some scientific
>knowledge with pure fantasies.

     No, some hydrogen containing species are among the better absorbers
     of microwaves in the 1-7 GHz range.  However, molecular hydrogen itself
     is an extremely lousy absorber of microwaves (as is molecular deuterium,
     my interest).

     And the picture that you painted is not correct.  The absorption acts
     on the molecular level, it is not just the hydrogens being pushed around
     but the interaction between all of the constituent atoms and their
     electron clouds, hydrogen is not special in this regard.


                               dale bass



--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Norman Kraft)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Jun 92 22:00:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Argus Computing, San Diego, CA
Lines: 25
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X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.16b 5/26/92 by Mikes Schwartz & Smith

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>
>     This is not MY story, although it has a lot to do with me, as
>it is the story of my girlfriend, Joan McCaughey.  Her experiences
>DO involve UFOs, but on a much more intense scale than any of my
>UFO experiences.

[...]

>I hope this
>helps convince others of my truthfulness.

How could it? You still haven't given us anything that we can check for
ourselves, or any way to tell paranoia from reality. How 'bout that list
of numbers and the instructions for their use? Now that might convince
someone!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norman R. Kraft                INET  : [e-mail]
Senior Partner                   UUCP  : ucsd!crash!bkhouse!nkraft
Argus Computing                GENIE : N.KRAFT3
San Diego, CA                   PORTAL: [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Are You There
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 10:54:21 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 43

A message to whom it may concern--

Has anyone out thier in net-land been abducted by aliens?.
Maybe it would account for the derth of detailed,sourced,debated,debunked,
discussed,experimented etc sightings,reports,projects or what have you
on matters UFO,alien etc.
How many times has it seemed that posters have disparaged the lack of
rigouously reasoned posts only to be devoid of interesting let alone
useful contributions themselves.
Where are the impeccable sources with the good oil on such things as.
Current residing places of contraversial audio,video tapes,still photos
(negatives included),radar readings,NORAD data,astronomical observations,
official & unofficial documents,technical briefs,scientific analyses
be it of photos,ground markings,radiation readings,EMI reports etc

Planned changes in the above.

Skeptic/Pro UFO investigator collaborations on studies,data analysis,experimen
ts,tests,surveys,discussions on protocals to follow & so on

Mass media reviews,critiques,followups,threats,inside involvement.

& yes how about hearing/seeing what all yee UFO skeptics out thier
would like seen done in studying/investigating the UFO phenomenea
& such things as what thier biggest blunders have been,what would be
the least evidence they would need to lend support to the various claims
& comments that have been cataloged by UFO/Alien believers through the
years.
& ifsomeday one day saucer shaped spacecraft did make thier presence
known to the many with the odd or not so odd definetly alien of an extraterres
trial origin emerging thus from what would yon UFO skeptics say about
it then?.

Well if the discovery let alone the interaction with Extraterrestrial
Orginating Intelligence is 1 of thee or the biggest event since who
knows what isn't it time to consider our actions if we get a chance
to have any?

*************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
**************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!caen!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!crb7q
From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 06:52:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6238 sci.physics:21965 sci.skeptic:25224

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.
>
>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>If I put a cup of water in the microwave, it gets hot, while the cup
>itself does not. So obviously, there is energy going into the water.
>If the water didn't absorb the microwaves, where does the energy come
>from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>may get into the interiour but they are not as strong there as at the
>surface, since they have been partially absorbed. Also, if you have
>food with fat and the fat is in chunks, you will notice that the fat
>gets very hot, while the rest of the food takes much longer to heat
>up. If I recall correctly, the Hydrogen atoms absorb energy from the
>microwaves. Since there are a lot of them in water and in fat (also in
>other organic material but especially in fat), food with a lot of
>water or fat heats up faster than other food.

    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with
    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply dielectric
    heating.

    The loss tangent  and dielectric constant for glass and ceramics is
    much much lower than water and other biological materials (not zero
    and this is a problem in experiments in nuclear heating simulations
    in my work with lower loss fluids than water).  Similarly, fat
    has a bunch of salty water in it, this is a large contributor
    to its ability to absorb microwaves of the appropriate wavelength.
    To prove this to yourself, take a small piece of fat and a shot-glass
    of very salty water in the microwave side by side, equidistant
    from the source and  see if either heats faster (you may have
    to try it several times to get a good feel with the typical
    lack of field uniformity in most home microwaves).

    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
    we are discussing.

>>    False.  Ionization occurs when a SINGLE PHOTON has enough
>>energy to create an ion pair  (this is the 'photoelectric effect'
>>that Einstein explained 80 years ago).  Microwaves are not ionizing
>[I don't think it was Einstein. But that is a minor point]
>
>>radiation (and this is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT).  Microwave health
>>effects are NOT due to ionization.  The lowest-frequency radiation
>>that can be called 'ionizing radiation' is visible light (especially
>>UV), at circa 1,000,000 GHz.
>
>Hmm. Interesting. Sounds logic. What effect makes microwaves a health
>risk? I do recall cooks getting cancer from first generation microwave
>ovens that weren't shielded properly.

    People with chronic gastroenteritis are much more likely to develop
    cancers of the esophagus and cardia of the stomach.  People with
    chronic active hepatitis are much more likely to develop liver
    cancer.  This is simply the result of years of increased cell
    divisions.  I suspect that your cooks were suffering increased
    cell death from heating mechanisms of unsheilded microwaves.

    Of course, I have never seen such studies and they may well
    by apocryphal.

                                     dale bass


--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 07:28:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
>    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
>    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply dielectric
                   ^^^^^^^^^^                    ^^^^
                    different                    peak

>    cell death from heating mechanisms of unsheilded microwaves.
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^
                                           unshielded

>    Of course, I have never seen such studies and they may well
>    by apocryphal.
     ^^
     be

     Geez, makes one think one should go back to using one's spelling
     chekker.
     ^^^^^^^
     checker
                                 dale bass

--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!gumby!destroyer!ubc-cs!uw-beaver!fluke!nordenga
From: [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Mind Game-Pleiadians9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 20:10:46 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Pease) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Edward Heinemann) writes...
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes:>
>>>
>>>At anyrate, the bible does not show one dot or tiddle of agreement
>>>with what these Pledians have to say, so either:
>>>
>>>a)  The bible is a book of lies.  And Jesus is a liar of the worst kind
>>>    because he has played a great deception game on humanity, and
>>>    succeeded in altering the course of humanity more than anyone
>>>    ever before in history.
>>>
>>>b)  Or, the Pleiadians are liars, phonies, and all they speak are lies
>>>    and they are playing a deception game on Don.  (Obviously, the
>>>    pleiades are not as well known as Jesus).
>>>
>>>I think the evidence speaks for itself.  The pleiadians don't show
>>>a shred of veracity.
>>
>>Or: (c) The Bible AND the Pleiadian text are BOTH fiction.
>>
>>Far more likely in my book...
>>
>
>Or: (d) The Bible AND the Pleiadian text are BOTH truth. One needs to
>    achieve a certain state of awareness to see that they are
>    both true in that the Bible and the Pleiadian are filtered
>    through ones own beliefs and this filtering is what causes
>    them to appear different.
>

Phil, would you care to reconcile Jesus' relationship with a monotheistic
God who he referred to as Daddy?  This stands opposed to the skylords
that the pleiadians talk about.  Would you care to reconcile what
Jesus said about serving one another and DENYING oneself?  This
stands opposed to the Pleiadian message of seeking the exalted self.  Would
you care to reconcile why Jesus accepted worship, and Peter, who knew
Jesus very well (better than you know Jesus by far)  refused worship?
Would you reconcile why angels of God refuse worship?  What makes
Jesus so special?  Why was he called the Christ, or messiah, i.e. "Anointed".

If the pleiadians are telling the truth, then why aren't they
standing firm against this deception that many have died for and against.
Why are the pleiadians so indifferent about a mind game being played
on mankind.  If Jesus was really a skylord, why didn't he save himself
on the cross?  Could he just call on his skylord buddies to rescue him
from a most humiliating death....to be crucified with theives?
Should we consider deceiving Jews, and the rest of mankind to this day
something honorable?  Now the most serious question:  Since these
higher beings are known to deceive, WHY SHOULD WE TRUST THEM?

>    For example, in the Bible, Jesus said the you must be like
>    him to enter the kingdom of Heaven and I interpret this to
>    mean I need to cultivate that same level of consciousness
>    the Jesus has and that state is where I am one with God.
>    Then the Pleiadian's focus on cultivating a "higher" state
>    of consciousness and I interpret this to mean the same
>    thing as Jesus stated.

First off; Jesus said that if you would BELIEVE in him, you would enter
the kingdom of heaven.  Secondly, do you refer to your impersonal
God as 'daddy' as Jesus did?  For if Jesus did not mean what he said
then you cannot say what he means, Phil.  Are your words are greater
than Jesus' words that you must restate what Jesus should have
stated?  And Jesus said if you BELIEVE in him, you will have eternal
life.  Lastly, can you show me where in the Bible Jesus stated what
you state/paraphrase (i.e. Provide me some verses, so I can read it in ink)?
The closest thing I can think of off hand is that your righteousness must
exceed that of the pharasees.  I will agree that a goal of a Christian
is Christ-likeness, but I strongly submit that we cannot obtain it ourselves,
but rather we can obtain it through faith in Christ, and that is the
message the authors of the Bible had.

>Phil Pease

-Arnold Nordeng

--
____________________________________________________________
Arnold E. Nordeng           Internet:  [e-mail]
Design Engineer
John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
      "If addiction is judged by how long a dumb animal
       will sit pressing a lever to get a 'fix' of
       something, to its own detriment, then I would
       conclude that netnews is far more addictive than
       cocaine."                        -- Rob Stampfli
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!news.bbn.com!hsdndev!taco!cjdcosta
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 07:47:44 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 2
Originator: [e-mail]


GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!sgi!cdp!elite
From: [e-mail] (Elite Enterprises)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ACTUAL UFO LANDING ON VIDEO! NEVER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 03:50:00 GMT
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1296700004:000:192
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!elite    Jun  5 20:50:00 1992


WE HAVE JUST GOT IN OUR POSSESSION OF A UFO LANDING!! NO BULL! E-MAIL
[e-mail]
IT IS ON VIDEO TAPE. DON'T ASK ME WHERE WE GOT IT FROM.
ROBERT
P.S. YOU CAN SEE THE LIGHTS AND IT PULSATES.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ACTUAL UFO LANDING ON VIDEO! NEVER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 21:47:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) says:
>
>     I also have in my posession a video of aliens landing, except
>     that in this one, they kill lots of people before succumbing
>     to the effects of earth's microorganisms.

My GOD!  You've seen it too!  I'm not alone!  I couldn't believe the way
they wasted that priest!  Death was too good for them!  Lately though, I've
heard rumors that they didn't really die but were merely knocked into a
state of deep hibernation.  I've even heard that they have their bodies
stored at nuclear waste facilities!  Do you know any more about this?

Scott
To Life Immortal... suckers!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hard Copy shows NASA UFO video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 00:45:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 25

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:

>NASA claims the object is a piece of ice made from waste water dumped by
>the shuttle on a previous orbit.  They have no comment about the
>apparent shot coming from earth, or the apparent right-angle turn of the
>UFO.

It could be an ET-UFO, but it could also be totally Earthly in origin.
Considering that in modern warfare if the enemy can take out your spy sats and
other space-based military hardware, you are at a distinct disadvantage, what
this incident suggests to me is a test of some advanced military hardware to
see if it could avoid being "taken out".

It would also explain why the shuttle cameras were focused on this particular
hunk of "uninteresting ice" at the time. :-)

Just my opinion - it could be something else entirely - I haven't actually
seen the video in question.

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cs.uow.edu.au!u8902001
From: [e-mail] (Darren Paul Watchers)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 13:45:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (Richard D Warner) writes:

>>
>> P.S. Ever try substituting greys for chicken in soup? I'm thinking
>> they may have the cold remedy same as chicken. Greys are cheaper too.
>>
> I've noticed that they taste a lot like chicken, but are less messy
>to work with.  We have a little coop in the back yard where we have two
>good breeders, and keep at any given time five or six more.  We only
>have to feed them twice a week, and they don't make any noise at all.

Hey, does anyone ever eat any aliens beside the greys? And could someone
send me some recipes? Please?

-Darren.
--
            Darren Watchers [e-mail]
=============================================================================
 Hi! I am a .signature virus. Watch what I can do to your messages :->
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!adingus
From: [e-mail] (Aaron T Dingus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The infamous Hangar
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 02:11:28 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


     Hello.

     I live very close to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and the "Alien in the
Hangar" story really freaks me out.

     I would like to receive any and all information about this scandalous
coverup.

     I can't believe how the U.S Government consistantly tries to deny these
strange happenings ever occur.

     Thank you very much.
--
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ACTUAL UFO LANDING ON VIDEO! NEVER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 14:02:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 5

In article <[e-mail]> Elite Enterprises <[e-mail]> writes:
>WE HAVE JUST GOT IN OUR POSSESSION OF A UFO LANDING!! NO BULL! E-MAIL

No you don't.  Otherwise we would have seen it on Nightline with Ted Koppel
grilling you about the video already.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!convex!mic!montagar.lonestar.org!fallout.lonestar.org!system
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 08:26:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: DECUS DFWLUG BBS *Dallas*TX*
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10383 alt.alien.visitors:6248 sci.skeptic:25239

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>         """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
>         |        -->  GLOBAL INDEPENDENCE DAY  <--        |
>         |             Stand Up And Be Counted             |
>         | "Remember Your Heritage -- Accept Your Destiny" |
>         |              Saturday July 4, 1992              |
>         |         Declare Spiritual Independence!         |
>         |                                                 |
>         """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
>
> ** Antahkarana Members Hold a Common Belief in These Principles: **
>
> 1. The entire Universe consists of at least 12 parallel dimensions...
>
> 2. Travel thorough Space, Time and across Worlds...
>
> 3. We recognize that scientific and spiritual knowledge are ...
>
> 4. Life forms found on Earth today probably did not originate on Earth ...
>
> 5. The course of history is again being influenced by Star People...
>
> 6. Spiritual and social knowledge on Earth has not kept pace ...
>
> For further information on Global Independence Day or other activities
> of Antahkarana,
> --


Gosh, and I was only going to drink a couple brewskis and try to shoot
out my eyes with a bottle rocket on the 4th.

Kind of makes you think that if there are people out there like this who
will give up their July 4th holiday to be really wierd, the rest of us
weekend wierdos just don't stand a chance.

Hat's off and I know when I've been out wierded...

Be seeing you,

          I voted for the fat, old, drug addicted Elvis Stamp.
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------------+
| John Wisniewski |                                                        |
| Dallas, TX  USA |               [e-mail]          |
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------------+
         1-900-GO FIGURE   (Kids get your parent's permission first.
                            Only $52.95 per minute (5 minute minium)
                            with talk a real alien from Tau Ceti IV!
                            Listen to it's inner most secrets and
                            fantasies about life, space and fiber optic
                            clarity.  Call now, call often, you're
                            special and you know about space aliens...
                            Honest...)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jun 92 19:25:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 20

[e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary
Stollman) writes...
> >I hope this >helps convince others of my truthfulness.
> >
> >          Gary Stollman
...
>         Gary,
>
>         Nothing  you   say  or  write  will  convince  anyone  that  your
>         dillusions and anything but dillusions.

I dunno...they could possibly be gherkinusions, or sweet pickleusions, or...

Craig
-- "Again," she said.             Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
-- "I'm afraid you've mistaken me       Internet: [e-mail] --
--  for someone else," the            Austin: [e-mail] --
--  bureaucrat said amiably.                        VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!crb7q
From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ACTUAL UFO LANDING ON VIDEO! NEVER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 17:22:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> Elite Enterprises <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>WE HAVE JUST GOT IN OUR POSSESSION OF A UFO LANDING!! NO BULL! E-MAIL
>[e-mail]
>IT IS ON VIDEO TAPE. DON'T ASK ME WHERE WE GOT IT FROM.
>ROBERT
>P.S. YOU CAN SEE THE LIGHTS AND IT PULSATES.

     I also have in my posession a video of aliens landing, except
     that in this one, they kill lots of people before succumbing
     to the effects of earth's microorganisms.

     We will show no videos before their time ...

                            dale bass



--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!steer!malx0664
From: [e-mail] (Generic Account 0664)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 03:56:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Admin)
Organization: San Diego State University (what's left of it)
Lines: 13

Can anyone send me some recipes for grays that are safe for hypoglycemics and
people with milk allergies(very strange diet in my house)? I'd like to use some
a friend of mine bagged hunting recently, but I need to make sure my fiancee can
eat it too.

BTW, does anyone know where to get kosher grays? my future grandmother-in-law
will be visiting soon.

--
Charles Herbig
S.D.S.U. freshman fighting to have a university to graduate from.
[e-mail]
Who me? Speak for S.D.S.U.? BWWWWAAAAAAAAAhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!well!apple![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 04:12:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MacDTS Mongols
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] writes:
> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->

No worries, NSA would have by now located your physical position.
--
                                              Cheers, Kent

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!well!apple![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysterious crop circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 04:15:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MacDTS Mongols
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Tim Seifert) writes:
>
> What is the recent status of the investigations into crop circles?  What
> are the latest explanations?  Vortex?  Space ships?  EM ?

   Heck, no. Just people having fun with those who believe in mysterious
crop circles. By the way, I'm heading home to Finland this summer, and
the farmers have pretty nice crop fields in my home town. So don't
be surprised if pictures of mysterious crop fields in Finland should
pop up by end-July.
--
                                              Cheers, Kent

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!apple!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sylvia Brown Arraigned for Fraud
Summary: She's in Big Trouble now!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 05:35:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 44
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:25248 alt.paranormal:5198 alt.alien.visitors:6254


        San Francisco Chronicle, Sat. June 6, 1992

     "Psychic Consultant Arraigned in Fraud Case"

Sylvia Brown, who gives psychic consultations and heads a Gnostic
Christian church in Campbell as well as a psychic research foundation,
was arraigned yesterday along with her estranged husband on six counts
of grand theft and investment fraud.

Brown, 55, and Kensil (Dal) Brown, 48, allegedly sold securities to a
gold mining venture in Paradise (Butte County) under false pretenses.

According to the criminal complaint filed in Santa Clara County Superior
Court, the Browns told investors their money would be used to pay operating
expenses at the mine. Sylvia Brown claimed to have strong psychic "feelings"
that the mine would pay off.

Instead of paying for the mine, the complaint alleges that the Browns trans-
ferred at least $27,000 in investment money to an account maintained on
behalf of the Nirvana Foundation for Psychic Research, which the Browns
founded in 1974. One month after the transfer, in April 1988, the Browns
declared bankruptcy in the mining venture, the complaint said.

                   - - - - - - - - - - - -

  (This was not Sylvia Brown's first brush with financial scandal. A
   few years back, her realtor and confidant was charged with obtaining
   loans for Brown under false pretenses. Prior to this time, she was
   a fast-rising "star" in the Psychic firmament. She issued "psychic
   predictions" each year which, even though 100% worthless like all
   such "predictions", nonetheless got her a wide TV audience.)
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Keywords: Antahkarana
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 07:07:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:10384 alt.alien.visitors:6255 sci.skeptic:25255

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>** Antahkarana Members Hold a Common Belief in These Principles: **
>
>1. The entire Universe consists of at least 12 parallel dimensions ...
>2. Travel thorough Space, Time and across Worlds  ...
>3. We recognize that scientific and spiritual knowledge are but
>   different expressions of the same basic universal knowledge...
>4. Life forms found on Earth today probably did not originate on
>   Earth...
>5. The course of history is again being influenced by Star People...
>6. Spiritual and social knowledge on Earth has not kept pace with
>   scientific development...

You forgot one:

7. The moon men took my socks!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!mcnc!borg!monet!davidson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hard Copy shows NASA UFO video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 18:26:06 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 34

The syndicated TV infotainment show Hard Copy showed a NASA videotape
beamed live from the Space Shuttle Discovery depicting a UFO flying
above the earth.  The video appears to be black and white; the UFO is
just a speck of light.  However, the light suddenly makes a right-angle
turn and speeds off into space at what appears to be high speed (it
actually seems to fly on a trajectory away from the camera, but seems to
go at high speed because it becomes quite dim and disappears as it is
moving a short distance on the screen).  A second or two after the UFO
appears to speed off, an object shoots up at right angles to the earth,
somewhat near the position of the UFO a second or two earlier.  Don
Ecker of UFO magazine theorizes that the UFO was making an evasive
maneuver to avoid being shot at.

NASA claims the object is a piece of ice made from waste water dumped by
the shuttle on a previous orbit.  They have no comment about the
apparent shot coming from earth, or the apparent right-angle turn of the
UFO.

Whatever it is, it's very intriguing.  It's very hard for me to believe
it was a piece of ice.  I would like to know much more, like what part
of earth the UFO and shot were over, and if there were any UFO
encounters in that area on that date.  I would also like to know what
the astronauts on board the shuttle thought of the incident when it
happened, and I would like to hear all radio transmissions made by them
before and after the incident.

Any comments on the video?

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!msuinfo!eecae.ee.msu.edu!grimm
From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 22:38:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Michigan State University
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
>>I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
>                         ^^^^^^

>    BY KLONO'S TUNGSTEN TEETH!

>    Attention, Lensmen!
>    It seems one of the members of that foul and indescribably horrid
>race, the Overlords of Delgon, has survived and seeks more of its evil
>kind! Prepare to blast it from the ether!

>                KIMBALL KINNISON
>                Second-Stage Lensman
>                Galactic Patrol

QX, Kimball.  And as the Overlords have preyed on my people for ages, let
me take the lead.  Death to the Overlords.

                WORSEL of VELATIA
                Second-Stage Lensman
                Galactic Patrol.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!newsaintmail
From: [e-mail] (Chris Boswell JHU CDF [phone])
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: used copy of An Alien Harvest wanted
Keywords: Alien Harvest Howe
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 23:53:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Fermilab
Lines: 11
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a4
Nntp-Posting-Host: fnalp.fnal.gov


Hi all,
  it's time for more non-standard-paridigmatic entertainment.
I'm looking for a used copy of An Alien Harvest
by L.M. Howe, I believe.  Send me e-mail and
mention how many federal reserve notes you'd want
to mail me your copy.
          [e-mail]
      or  FNALD::BOSWELL
 Thanks,
    Chris
Path: ns-mx!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!milton.u.washington.edu!whit
From: [e-mail] (John Whitmore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 23:06:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6259 sci.physics:21991 sci.skeptic:25301

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (-*_Spikey_Tribble_*-) writes:
>[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:

>>      If you are going to make such an assertion, please explain
>>      the nature of the 'peak'.

> It's the frequency absorbed most completely by water in this range.

    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
so) at microwave-oven frequencies.

>>      Also, assuming that you meant 75 W deposition, this greatly exceeds
>>      the occupational limits (in reasonably-sized humans) of 0.4 W/kg
>>      whole-body SAR recommended by the International Radiation Protection
>>      Association (IRPA) (1983).  In all likelyhood, the only thing that
>>      one would have to worry about short-term is resonances cooking important
>>      things like eyeballs.

> It might not just be the heat in question here, but ionization.

    False.  Ionization occurs when a SINGLE PHOTON has enough
energy to create an ion pair  (this is the 'photoelectric effect'
that Einstein explained 80 years ago).  Microwaves are not ionizing
radiation (and this is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT).  Microwave health
effects are NOT due to ionization.  The lowest-frequency radiation
that can be called 'ionizing radiation' is visible light (especially
UV), at circa 1,000,000 GHz.

    2.4 GHz is very different stuff, indeed.  Even as little a
difference as five orders of magnitude, is sometimes important.  :-)


    John Whitmore
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!rhombus!wilson
From: [e-mail] (Dwight Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sylvia Brown Arraigned for Fraud
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 13:54:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news system)
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>According to the criminal complaint filed in Santa Clara County Superior
>Court, the Browns told investors their money would be used to pay operating
>expenses at the mine. Sylvia Brown claimed to have strong psychic "feelings"
>that the mine would pay off.

And she was 100% correct.  She just didn't bother to mention that it
would pay off for her, not the investors. :-)
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From: [e-mail] (  911  Thomas O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Mind Game
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 14:18:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (  911  Thomas O'Sullivan)
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                     blah blah
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 15:10:15 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nick Eads) writes...
>saw it myself -- it was an accident.)  They showed what I feel is some of the
>most impressive evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial activity.  The

Uh, pardon my asking a stupid question, but what's the connection between a
couple of moving lights on a video tape and little green men from outer space?

-Tom R.   milkwy.enet.dec.com!trandolph
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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 00:21:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (-*_Spikey_Tribble_*-) writes:
>[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>      If you are going to make such an assertion, please explain
>>      the nature of the 'peak'.
>>
> It's the frequency absorbed most completely by water in this range. Like
>a light frequency between yellow and green is most strongly absorbed by
>eyes (colour vision), or a blue frequency (night vision).

     Bzzt.  Next contestant.

     In order to get back into the game, explain why the dielectric
     properties show no such thing (and as a corollary, why there
     seems to be no physical rhyme or reason to the specific frequencies
     chosen for microwave tubes).

>>      Also, assuming that you meant 75 W deposition, this greatly exceeds
>>      the occupational limits (in reasonably-sized humans) of 0.4 W/kg
>>      whole-body SAR recommended by the International Radiation Protection
>>      Association (IRPA) (1983).  In all likelyhood, the only thing that
>>      one would have to worry about short-term is resonances cooking important
>>      things like eyeballs.
>>
> It might not just be the heat in question here, but ionization.

     I assure you, it is heat.  Specifically, there are 'optical'
     resonance types of things (i.e. hot spots) in spheres of eyeball-sized
     things inside spheres of head-sized things under 12 cm radiation
     of sufficient incident flux.  If biological types of things get
     too hot they tend to not work as well as they otherwise might.

     Also, please please please do not confuse this 'resonance' with
     any molecular type of peak.

                             dale bass
--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 18:14:52 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>If I recall correctly, the Hydrogen atoms absorb energy from the
>microwaves. Since there are a lot of them in water and in fat (also in
>other organic material but especially in fat), food with a lot of
>water or fat heats up faster than other food.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

If we accept your hypothesis that it's absorption by electrons associated with
hydrogen atoms, we'd still find that the absorption bands of:
    1)  Unbound hydrogen atoms
    2)  Hydrogen atoms bound to oxygen atoms; and
    3)  Hydogren atoms bound to carbon atoms
differ substantially.  Furthermore, the absorption bands are influenced by
other bonds between the oxygen and carbon atoms in questions and the
surrounding atoms.  In short, your observation that both fat and water are
strongly heated by microwaves would tend to ague against your hypothesis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!icdoc!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 15:06:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nick Eads) writes:
> Did anyone catch today's Hard Copy (6/5)? (Of course, I hate to admit that I
> saw it myself -- it was an accident.)  They showed what I feel is some of the
> most impressive evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial activity.  The
> video was shot by one of the astronauts on a recent (the most recent?)
> shuttle mission.  I will describe the video as it was shown...
>
    [stuff deleted]

Hold tight just a minute!
Nick, what you describe is a white dot which appears to make a right angled
at speed. What makes you think that it evidence of extraterrestrials? (I
have not seen the video myself, so I only have your description to go by)
(Not a flame, just seeking further information)

At this point I am willing to believe it is a UFO on the basis that it is
an Unidentified White Dot. From your post there is not enough information
to indentify it as anything. The ice theory sound unlikely, but without
seeing the original........

Does anybody know if this video is scheduled to be shown anywhere, like
the Rocky Mountain UFO Conference or the MUFON Conference which both happen
over the next couple of weeks?

I am not familiar with Hard Copy. The way Nick denies that he watches it
makes me think it is TV's answer to the National Enquirer, is this
correct?

Steve

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services,
Clinical Research Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!ukma!vlsi!starbase.spd.louisville.edu!nreads01
From: [e-mail] (Nick Eads)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO video from NASA
Summary: A recent episode of Hard Copy showed a possible UFO captured from the s
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 22:02:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News System)
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Did anyone catch today's Hard Copy (6/5)? (Of course, I hate to admit that I
saw it myself -- it was an accident.)  They showed what I feel is some of the
most impressive evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial activity.  The
video was shot by one of the astronauts on a recent (the most recent?)
shuttle mission.  I will describe the video as it was shown...

Looking toward the surface of the earth, and just below the horizon, a
small light moved slowly (relatively, of course) from the right to the left.
Then suddenly, and without *apparent* cause, the thing immediately executes
a 90 degree turn and accelerates rapidly off across the horizon and into
space.  Meanwhile, at roughly the same location where the thing was at the
moment before turning, another something shoots rapidly *up* from earth and
into space.  According to the UFO investigator (pardon me, but I forget
his name, but he is on the UFO magazine staff), somebody "shot" something
at it, and the thing anticipated the shot and evaded.

Official explanation from NASA was "it was ice" left by the shuttle.  ICE?
That's a heck of a change in attitude and speed for a piece of orbiting
ice.  Of course, one can't be sure of the distance from the shuttle, which
would be a vital piece of info.  I'm usually not impressed by UFO reports,
but this was something to see.  Anyone else catch it?
--
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
| Nick "The Cache" Eads        | [e-mail]         |
| EE Department                *----------------------------------------------*
| University of Louisville     | GEMail: N.EADS                               |
| Louisville, Kentucky 40292   | SciBoard (502-588-0864): Sysnick             |
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
|      Don't blame me; the Illuminati are responsible for everything...       |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!marcush
From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 19:32:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>>If I recall correctly, the Hydrogen atoms absorb energy from the
>>microwaves. Since there are a lot of them in water and in fat (also in
>>other organic material but especially in fat), food with a lot of
>>water or fat heats up faster than other food.
>
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Relax! I never claimed to be an expert, ok?

>If we accept your hypothesis that it's absorption by electrons associated with

I didn't know I mentioned electrons anywhere in my article.

>hydrogen atoms, we'd still find that the absorption bands of:
>    1)  Unbound hydrogen atoms
>    2)  Hydrogen atoms bound to oxygen atoms; and
>    3)  Hydogren atoms bound to carbon atoms
>differ substantially.  Furthermore, the absorption bands are influenced by
>other bonds between the oxygen and carbon atoms in questions and the
>surrounding atoms.  In short, your observation that both fat and water are
>strongly heated by microwaves would tend to ague against your hypothesis.

My knowledge of this is only diffuse as you may have noticed from my
earlier article. Could you please elaborate a little more on what you
write? How would you explain the fact that so many people think the
Hydrogen has something to do with it? Someone must have brought that
up in a very convincing way. There were two main questions in this
thread to be answered: How do microwaves heat up food and what are the
health risks of microwaves.  Do YOU have an answer? I don't and with
my previous article I never intended to answer these questions. Thus,
there is no need to argue against my hypothesis since I don't have
one. I just noted that microwaves must be absorbed at least partially,
since otherwise there would be no energy transfer to the food. And I
also noted that I *think* (not know) that the Hydrogen has something
to do with it but I don't know exactly what.

Marcus
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!marcush
From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 19:58:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.
>>
>>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>> [...]
>>from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>
>    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
>    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
>    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
>    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with

I don't quite understand. Do you agree with the previous poster that
there is no surface heating or do you disagree? And why would the
surface heating be amzing? It would of course, if water were
absolutely absorbing but my claim is that it only partially absorbs
microwaves. Thus, you do have surface heating, but it need not be amazing.

>    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
>    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
                         ^^^^^^^^
>    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
>    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
>    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
>    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply dielectric
>    heating.

Are you sure this is always a constant? For ideal dielectrics it would
be, but in the real world isn't the dielectric "constant"
frequency-dependent? I don't claim a sharp peak but some "hills" and
"valleys".

Also, I don't quite see the difference between absorption heating and
heating in general. I guess, it depends on the definition. Heating
always means energy transfer. Energy is being transfered from the
source, which heats, to the sink, which is being heated. Thus, the
sink absorbs energy. Every type of heating involves absorption in some
way.

>    The loss tangent  and dielectric constant for glass and ceramics is
>    much much lower than water and other biological materials (not zero
>    and this is a problem in experiments in nuclear heating simulations
>    in my work with lower loss fluids than water).  Similarly, fat
>    has a bunch of salty water in it, this is a large contributor
>    to its ability to absorb microwaves of the appropriate wavelength.

Aha, so you do agree with me that there is some absorption which is
frequency dependent. If I interpret you correctly, we differ in what
exactly absorbs the microwaves. Since you are much more expert than I
am, I tend to believe you that it is the salty water.

>    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
>    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
>    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
>    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
>    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
>    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
>    we are discussing.

Maybe this is where all this "Hydrogen absorbs microwaves"
misunderstanding comes from. Your description can very well be
interpreted by the naive reader as "microwaves give Hydrogen atoms a
little push and thus excite the matter. Excitation is equivalent to
heat and this is the way microwave ovens work. Why Hydrogen? Well its
the lightest element and the poor, heavy working microwaves look for
the easiest excitable atoms and Hydrogen atoms probably wiggle best at
microwave frequency." A typical example of combining some scientific
knowledge with pure fantasies.

Anyway, I learn a lot in this discussion and I hope others do, too.
Thanks to everybody who has posted/is posting/will post.

Marcus
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!crb7q
From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Jun 92 20:25:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>
>My knowledge of this is only diffuse as you may have noticed from my
>earlier article. Could you please elaborate a little more on what you
>write? How would you explain the fact that so many people think the
>Hydrogen has something to do with it? Someone must have brought that
>up in a very convincing way.

    Sure, if you explain why so many people believe in ESP.

    But seriously, if you did not understand the explanations offered,
    a more detailed explanation will take some work on your part (i.e.
    take a physics class, go check out a book on microwave heating).

>There were two main questions in this
>thread to be answered: How do microwaves heat up food and what are the
>health risks of microwaves.  Do YOU have an answer? I don't and with

    The first was answered several times.  The second was answered at
    least three times to my knowledge.  More detailed health risks
    can be had by searching in your local public library.  There are
    a number of standards.  If you are interested, I would be glad
    to provide a few references.

    However, once again, you will have to do a bit of work for yourself
    if you have not understood the explanations offered.

>my previous article I never intended to answer these questions. Thus,
>there is no need to argue against my hypothesis since I don't have
>one. I just noted that microwaves must be absorbed at least partially,
>since otherwise there would be no energy transfer to the food. And I
>also noted that I *think* (not know) that the Hydrogen has something
>to do with it but I don't know exactly what.

    They are absorbed, and hydrogen has something to do with it in that
    species containing hydrogen tend to be the ones we stuff in ovens.
    However, there is nothing magical about the frequency chosen, it
    just happens to be one of a range that would work acceptably.

                            dale bass



--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!kodak!ornitz
From: [e-mail] (Barry Ornitz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Microwaves (was Re: High frequency EM fields around body)
Summary: Microwave ovens are not based on resonant absorption
Keywords: microwaves, absorption, resonance, dielectrics, permittivity
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 15:55:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Barry L. Ornitz
Followup-To: sci.physics
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6270 sci.physics:22014 sci.skeptic:25340

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>If I put a cup of water in the microwave, it gets hot, while the cup
>itself does not. So obviously, there is energy going into the water.
>If the water didn't absorb the microwaves, where does the energy come
>from?

Water, like most materials, has a complex permittivity; the real part is
the dielectric constant and the imaginary part is the dielectric loss.  The
real part is associated with energy storage and the imaginary part is
associated with energy dissipation.  Water has a high dielectric loss over
a wide range of frequencies.  This is why water can be heated by radio
frequency and microwave energy over a very large spectra.

Someone earlier mentioned an optical analogy.  This is a good one.  Water
behaves much as a neutral density filters do in the visible region. These
absorb (attenuate) light going through them over a broad spectrum.  They do
not color the light coming out of them, which they would do if they were
wavelength dependent.  However, neutral density filters do show wavelength
dependency well outside their normal operating wavelengths (UV and IR).  The
same can be said for water in the microwave region.  Water, for example,
shows strong (resonant) absorption peaks at approximately 24, 200, and 350 GHz.
These frequencies are well above the operating range of all commercial
microwave ovens used worldwide (in the US, the ISM frequency of 2.45 GHz is
used).

>And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>may get into the interiour but they are not as strong there as at the
>surface, since they have been partially absorbed. Also, if you have
>food with fat and the fat is in chunks, you will notice that the fat
>gets very hot, while the rest of the food takes much longer to heat
>up.

Microwaves entering the food are absorbed and converted to heat.  As they go
deeper into the food, their amplitude decreases leading to less heating.
Microwaves do not "heat from the inside out".

Two effects are taking place when you heat a mixture of fat and lean meat.
The fat and lean areas have different dielectric properties leading them to
absorb microwave energy differently.  However, fat has a lower specific heat
than does lean (which has a significant water content).  For the same energy
input, fat will reach a higher temperature.  Also remember that meat with
significant water content is limited in its maximum temperature by the latent
heat effect of the water.

>If I recall correctly, the Hydrogen atoms absorb energy from the
>microwaves. Since there are a lot of them in water and in fat (also in
>other organic material but especially in fat), food with a lot of
>water or fat heats up faster than other food.

But the hydrogen atoms are chemically bound.  There is no resonance phenomena
involved.  Water and most fats are broad microwave absorbers.

>Hmm. Interesting. Sounds logic. What effect makes microwaves a health
>risk? I do recall cooks getting cancer from first generation microwave
>ovens that weren't shielded properly.

Microwave energy is not ionizing radiation.  The health risks are generally
associated with the thermal effects.  Cataracts are the most frequent
hazard.  The cornea of the eye has virtually no mechanism to dissipate
excess heat, thus any microwave energy absorbed can cause it to heat.

Most early microwave ovens were shielded properly, but did not have the
complicated interlocks to prevent the user from doing something stupid.  I
have know of cases where restaurants removed the doors from ovens so they
could reach in and remove food while the oven was operating.  The cooks
rarely had serious problems in their hands or arms from this as blood
circulation was usually adequate the limit the temperature rise of these
extremities.  Howver, blindness after a few years was common.

                    Barry
 -----------------
|  ___  ________  |       Dr. Barry L. Ornitz          WA4VZQ
| |  / /        | |       Eastman Kodak Company
| | / /         | |       Eastman Chemical Company Research Laboratories
| |< < K O D A K| |       Process Instrumentation Research Laboratory
| | \ \         | |       P. O. Box 1972, Building 167B
| |__\ \________| |       Kingsport, TN  37662       615/229-4904
|                 |       INTERNET:   [e-mail]
 -----------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!leland.Stanford.EDU!marcush
From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 02:57:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6271 sci.physics:22020 sci.skeptic:25349

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.

Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
If I put a cup of water in the microwave, it gets hot, while the cup
itself does not. So obviously, there is energy going into the water.
If the water didn't absorb the microwaves, where does the energy come
from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
may get into the interiour but they are not as strong there as at the
surface, since they have been partially absorbed. Also, if you have
food with fat and the fat is in chunks, you will notice that the fat
gets very hot, while the rest of the food takes much longer to heat
up. If I recall correctly, the Hydrogen atoms absorb energy from the
microwaves. Since there are a lot of them in water and in fat (also in
other organic material but especially in fat), food with a lot of
water or fat heats up faster than other food.

>    False.  Ionization occurs when a SINGLE PHOTON has enough
>energy to create an ion pair  (this is the 'photoelectric effect'
>that Einstein explained 80 years ago).  Microwaves are not ionizing
[I don't think it was Einstein. But that is a minor point]

>radiation (and this is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT).  Microwave health
>effects are NOT due to ionization.  The lowest-frequency radiation
>that can be called 'ionizing radiation' is visible light (especially
>UV), at circa 1,000,000 GHz.

Hmm. Interesting. Sounds logic. What effect makes microwaves a health
risk? I do recall cooks getting cancer from first generation microwave
ovens that weren't shielded properly.

Marcus
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: NASA Video..Most Interesting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 19:24:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 42
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

I've seen the video mentioned; actually, I've seen a version
of it that had quite a bit more stuff on it that was along
the same lines, just a bit stranger.  The version I saw included
a segment showing (fairly clearly) two objects that
appeared to be oblate and flickering as though they were
spinning come across the field of view; a fast-moving "streak" comes
up from below---presumably from Mother Earth---and appears to
strike one of the objects.  The result?  I don't know...at the
instant of apparent impact, the tape "cut away" to another segment.

The version shown to me is currently in the hands of a small group
of private individuals whose names I cannot---and would not---reveal.
I feel that merely stating what I have seen in no way compromises
my promise to them to keep my big trap shut about their posessing
such a tape, and I only mention this to let all of you who have
not seen this video (nor, more than likely, believe that it exists)
that

  (A) It most certainly does exist, although I grant you that
      my merely saying so doesn't constitute concrete proof
      thereof,
  (B) It contains rather a bit more than the segment seen on
      "Hard Copy"---stuff that left me shaking my head and
      feeling a bit disturbed (yeah, yeah---I can hear all the
      wits out there smirking: "Yup...I'll BET you're disturbed,
      buddy!") that, if those "streaks" really WERE shots, then
      we may already be in a "shooting war" with an opponent
      we can't hit, and
  (C) This NASA nonsense about ice can be definitely ruled out
      (especially if you see the other segments of the tape,)
      but the possibility of the whole thing being a H-K
      (Hunter-Killer) satellite test cannot---until somebody
      figures out how to deduce the speed of the objects from
      the video tape and arrives at a figure that mitigates
      against making the rather extreme turns seen therein.
      I may give it a go myself this summer, if I can find
      some slack time.

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Home of the Toughest Organic Chemistry Instructors in the Galaxy
(On videotape OR off!)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!nstn.ns.ca!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!tseifert
From: [e-mail] (Tim Seifert)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mysterious crop circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Jun 92 18:28:06 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Lines: 2

What is the recent status of the investigations into crop circles?  What
are the latest explanations?  Vortex?  Space ships?  EM ?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!zrz.tu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hard Copy shows NASA UFO video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 20:22:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 61

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:

>The syndicated TV infotainment show Hard Copy showed a NASA videotape
>beamed live from the Space Shuttle Discovery depicting a UFO flying
>above the earth.  The video appears to be black and white; the UFO is
>just a speck of light.  However, the light suddenly makes a right-angle
>turn and speeds off into space at what appears to be high speed (it
>actually seems to fly on a trajectory away from the camera, but seems to
>go at high speed because it becomes quite dim and disappears as it is
>moving a short distance on the screen).  A second or two after the UFO
>appears to speed off, an object shoots up at right angles to the earth,
>somewhat near the position of the UFO a second or two earlier.  Don
>Ecker of UFO magazine theorizes that the UFO was making an evasive
>maneuver to avoid being shot at.

>NASA claims the object is a piece of ice made from waste water dumped by
>the shuttle on a previous orbit.  They have no comment about the
>apparent shot coming from earth, or the apparent right-angle turn of the
>UFO.

>Whatever it is, it's very intriguing.  It's very hard for me to believe
>it was a piece of ice.  I would like to know much more, like what part
>of earth the UFO and shot were over, and if there were any UFO
>encounters in that area on that date.  I would also like to know what
>the astronauts on board the shuttle thought of the incident when it
>happened, and I would like to hear all radio transmissions made by them
>before and after the incident.

>Any comments on the video?

>Drew
>--
>Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
>[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
> ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
>* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.


I agree !

Please everybody who has some new info, please post it and make it
available to the net !

By the way, where can I see this tape over here in Germany ?

Will there be any TV-show, that will carry the tape on a broadcast ?

Will it be shown again on CNN or AFN ? (this are the only 2 channel , we can
receive over here in Berlin,Germany on our Cable system (without a sat.dish))

Best regards Stefan Hartmann.
email to: [e-mail]


--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!oracle!unrepliable!bounce
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 20:20:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Oracle News Poster)
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6275 sci.physics:22027 sci.skeptic:25365
Nntp-Posting-Host: appseq
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:

>>    False.  Ionization occurs when a SINGLE PHOTON has enough
>>energy to create an ion pair  (this is the 'photoelectric effect'
>>that Einstein explained 80 years ago).  Microwaves are not ionizing

>[I don't think it was Einstein. But that is a minor point]

It was Einstein.

>>radiation (and this is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT).  Microwave health
>>effects are NOT due to ionization.  The lowest-frequency radiation
>>that can be called 'ionizing radiation' is visible light (especially
>>UV), at circa 1,000,000 GHz.

>Hmm. Interesting. Sounds logic. What effect makes microwaves a health
>risk? I do recall cooks getting cancer from first generation microwave
>ovens that weren't shielded properly.

No.  You recall urban legends about cooks getting cancer from first
generation microwaves.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!oracle!unrepliable!bounce
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 20:34:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]} <[e-mail]} <[e-mail]}
Sender: [e-mail] (Oracle News Poster)
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Lines: 97
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6276 sci.physics:22028 sci.skeptic:25366
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X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

Marcus, admit it, you're wrong.

In article <[e-mail]} [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
}In article <[e-mail]} [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
}}In article <[e-mail]} [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
}}}In article <[e-mail]} [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:

}}}}    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
}}}}oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
}}}}impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
}}}}broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
}}}}The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
}}}}so) at microwave-oven frequencies.

}}}Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
}}}to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
}}} [...]
}}}from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
}}}microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
}}}the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves

}}    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
}}    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
}}    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
}}    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with

}I don't quite understand. Do you agree with the previous poster that
}there is no surface heating or do you disagree?

He agreed. Reread the post if necessary.

}And why would the
}surface heating be amzing? It would of course, if water were
}absolutely absorbing but my claim is that it only partially absorbs
}microwaves. Thus, you do have surface heating, but it need not be amazing.

Mind telling us what "absolutely absorbing" means?  I claim that this
phrase, when applied to a substance, lacks any physical meaning.  Once
you answer this question you will understand what is wrong with your
statement above.

}}    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
}}    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
}                         ^^^^^^^^
}}    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
}}    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
}}    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
}}    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply dielectric
}}    heating.

}Are you sure this is always a constant? For ideal dielectrics it would
}be, but in the real world isn't the dielectric "constant"
}frequency-dependent? I don't claim a sharp peak but some "hills" and
}"valleys".

Well, minor hills and valleys are pretty irrelevant.  You need orders
of magnitude differences (otherwise describe as sharp peaks) form r
minor frequency changes to make a difference.

}Also, I don't quite see the difference between absorption heating and
}heating in general. I guess, it depends on the definition. Heating
}always means energy transfer. Energy is being transfered from the
}source, which heats, to the sink, which is being heated. Thus, the
}sink absorbs energy. Every type of heating involves absorption in some
}way.

True, but totally different from your original claim which was that
water absorbs microwaves.  The point that was made, and which was
clear to anyone not desperately trying to avoid admitting ignorance,
is that any dielectric absorbs radiation at microwave frequencies.
Moreover, this effect is unrelated to more traditional absorption like
light going through smokey glass where a constant percentage of the
energy is absorbed for each meter.  Instead, this is a global process

}}    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
}}    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
}}    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
}}    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
}}    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
}}    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
}}    we are discussing.

}Maybe this is where all this "Hydrogen absorbs microwaves"
}misunderstanding comes from. Your description can very well be
}interpreted by the naive reader as "microwaves give Hydrogen atoms a
}little push and thus excite the matter. Excitation is equivalent to
}heat and this is the way microwave ovens work. Why Hydrogen? Well its
}the lightest element and the poor, heavy working microwaves look for
}the easiest excitable atoms and Hydrogen atoms probably wiggle best at
}microwave frequency." A typical example of combining some scientific
}knowledge with pure fantasies.

Well, you're good at that, especially as hydrogen wasn't even
mentioned in the paragraph above.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!widener!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 19:55:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 11

[e-mail] writes:

>
> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->

        You don't want to meet him.

Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
New Sig File Under Construction-- Light and Compact for your Usenet Pleasure.
"The recent problem with the satellite retrieval managed to prove one thing;
DeVries graduates really _do_ work for NASA."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!news2me.ebay.sun.com!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!texsun!digi!jtisdel
From: [e-mail] (J. Michael Tisdel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 20:40:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
>[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
>>>I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
>>                         ^^^^^^
>
>>    BY KLONO'S TUNGSTEN TEETH!
>
>>    Attention, Lensmen!
>>    It seems one of the members of that foul and indescribably horrid
>>race, the Overlords of Delgon, has survived and seeks more of its evil
>>kind! Prepare to blast it from the ether!
>
>>                KIMBALL KINNISON
>>                Second-Stage Lensman
>>                Galactic Patrol
>
>QX, Kimball.  And as the Overlords have preyed on my people for ages, let
>me take the lead.  Death to the Overlords.
>
>                WORSEL of VELATIA
>                Second-Stage Lensman
>                Galactic Patrol.

Pthbthbthb!
                Lensman from Rigel
                Galatic Patrol

--
 J. Michael Tisdel         | "One ring to rule them all,
 [e-mail] |  One ring to find them.
 DSC Communications Corp.  |  One ring to brng them all,
 ** Standard Disclaimer ** |  And in the darkness, bind them."
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ACTUAL UFO LANDING ON VIDEO! NEVER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 19:56:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 15

[e-mail] (Elite Enterprises) writes:

>
> WE HAVE JUST GOT IN OUR POSSESSION OF A UFO LANDING!! NO BULL! E-MAIL
> [e-mail]
> IT IS ON VIDEO TAPE. DON'T ASK ME WHERE WE GOT IT FROM.
> ROBERT
> P.S. YOU CAN SEE THE LIGHTS AND IT PULSATES.

        That;s funny, that's just how people described "Inside Seka" to me.

Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
New Sig File Under Construction-- Light and Compact for your Usenet Pleasure.
"The recent problem with the satellite retrieval managed to prove one thing;
DeVries graduates really _do_ work for NASA."
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <q#=[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 21:17:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 53
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6280 sci.skeptic:25373 alt.paranormal:5220

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Eads) writes:
>Did anyone catch today's Hard Copy (6/5)? (Of course, I hate to admit that I
>saw it myself -- it was an accident.)  They showed what I feel is some of the
>most impressive evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial activity.  The
>video was shot by one of the astronauts on a recent (the most recent?)
>shuttle mission.  I will describe the video as it was shown...
>
>Looking toward the surface of the earth, and just below the horizon, a
>small light moved slowly (relatively, of course) from the right to the left.
>Then suddenly, and without *apparent* cause, the thing immediately executes
>a 90 degree turn and accelerates rapidly off across the horizon and into
>space.  Meanwhile, at roughly the same location where the thing was at the
>moment before turning, another something shoots rapidly *up* from earth and
>into space.  According to the UFO investigator (pardon me, but I forget
>his name, but he is on the UFO magazine staff), somebody "shot" something
>at it, and the thing anticipated the shot and evaded.
>
>Official explanation from NASA was "it was ice" left by the shuttle.  ICE?
>That's a heck of a change in attitude and speed for a piece of orbiting
>ice.  Of course, one can't be sure of the distance from the shuttle, which
>would be a vital piece of info.  I'm usually not impressed by UFO reports,
>but this was something to see.  Anyone else catch it?

I spoke to James Oberg about this. He didn't know it had been on "Hard
Copy", but he's quite familiar with the video. Apparently it's something
that some UFO enthusiast taped off the "NASA Select" cable channel late
one night, got excited, and flew off the handle. The far-out fringe of
UFOlogy has been promoting it ever since.

Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
leave the camera on during the "night", while the crew is asleep. The
camera is then controlled from the ground, with a little joystick-type
arrangement. If the mission controllers want to look over here, or
over there, they just flip the lever, and the camera moves. And if
some brain-dead UFOlogist just happens to be watching as the camera
is turned away from a piece of ice, he says "Wow! Look at that baby
accelerate!!!!!!"
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

    "Every psychic investigator of [the medium] Mrs. Piper was impressed
     by her simplicity and honesty. It never occurred to them that no
     charlatan ever achieves greatness by acting like a charlatan. No
     professional spy acts like a spy. No card cheat behaves at the
     table like a card cheat."
                               - Martin Gardner  (writing in "Free Inquiry",
                                                  Spring, 1992)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!snake.cs.uidaho.edu!dean
From: [e-mail] (Dean Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: first contact in '94
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Jun 92 05:23:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992May26.160300.12746@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dean Collins)
Organization: none
Lines: 16
X-Posted-From: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992May26.160300.12746@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S0737338) writes:
|> u->
|> ->  No, I say first contact will be made in 94' in Idaho, moscow Idaho(vich).
|>
|> WRONG Buba.  There is NO SUCH THING as Idaho.  See debate in alt.discrimination.
|> Posters there have concluded anyone who believes in Idaho is some kind of a
|> nut case.  UFOs OK but cut out this Idaho crap.
|> --

Oh, my God!  My entire college career at the U. of I. here in MOSCOW, IDAHO
is a LIE ???!!!  Has somebody (or someTHING) given me false memories
of the last few years???!!!  Ack!

-=-
Deano.         "Reality is a state of mind." (ME)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!milton.u.washington.edu!whit
From: [e-mail] (John Whitmore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 22:00:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 37
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6282 sci.physics:22034 sci.skeptic:25374

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.

>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?

    Transparent means that light penetrates the material, NOT
that it is completely unimpeded.  A dark brown beer bottle is still
transparent, though it attenuates the light that passes through.
I'd estimate the extinction depth in food to be circa 1 mm for
visible light (and IR like in a broiler), and maybe 4 cm in the
microwaves from a microwave oven.
    Since most food items are much thicker than 1mm, I'd call
them opaque.  If I saw in microwaves, I'd call them transparent
(or perhaps translucent).

> ... notice that the fat
>gets very hot, while the rest of the food takes much longer to heat

    There is probably similar absorption in fats as in water; the
heat capacity of water is VERY HIGH, so the water just doesn't
reach a high temperature as fast as the nearby fat does.  Or maybe
the fat DOES have higher absorptivity (the best way to tell is to
put an insulated test object in a cup of water, and another in a cup of
oil, and see which object gets hotter).


    John Whitmore

p.s. I'm not expert at microwave absorption; I mainly do X-rays.
Most of my info comes from last year's discussions on this topic.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!jesse
From: [e-mail] (Jesse Mundis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 23:07:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]>
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 48
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6283 sci.skeptic:25378 alt.paranormal:5222

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Eads) writes:

[...]
>>
>>Looking toward the surface of the earth, and just below the horizon, a
>>small light moved slowly (relatively, of course) from the right to the left.
>>Then suddenly, and without *apparent* cause, the thing immediately executes
>>a 90 degree turn and accelerates rapidly off across the horizon and into
>>space.  Meanwhile, at roughly the same location where the thing was at the
>>moment before turning, another something shoots rapidly *up* from earth and
>>into space.  According to the UFO investigator (pardon me, but I forget
>>his name, but he is on the UFO magazine staff), somebody "shot" something
>>at it, and the thing anticipated the shot and evaded.
>>

[...]

>Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
>Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
>your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
>of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
>leave the camera on during the "night", while the crew is asleep. The
>camera is then controlled from the ground, with a little joystick-type
>arrangement. If the mission controllers want to look over here, or
>over there, they just flip the lever, and the camera moves. And if
>some brain-dead UFOlogist just happens to be watching as the camera
>is turned away from a piece of ice, he says "Wow! Look at that baby
>accelerate!!!!!!"
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

I did not see the footage in question, but for those of you who did, if it
was camera movement, and the first person described "Looking toward the surface
of the earth, and just below the horizon,"  Wouldn't rapid camera panning
be obvious?  The ice/ufo would remain stationary w.r.t. the horizon.  I'd think
a fast pan would be obvious since the scenery should move too.  If there were
no background to measure camera movement by, I'd be much more inclined to
"write it off."  So, could someone who saw the footage please comment on this?

--
    Jesse Mundis     |      Amdahl Corporation       | Freedom is just chaos
[e-mail] | 1250 East Arques Ave  M/S 316 | with better lighting.
   [phone]    |   Sunnyvale,  CA 94088-3470   |    -Alan Dean Foster

#include <Disclaimer.standard>
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From: [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!-JOAN'S STORY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 23:11:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
Lines: 9
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[e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
[stuff deleted]
:
: who filed the name off with a chisel before giving it to her.
      ^^^^^              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I suppose the rest of this story is just as accurate...

Steve.
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grays
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 04:24:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Generic Account 0664) writes:
> Can anyone send me some recipes for grays that are safe for hypoglycemics and
> people with milk allergies(very strange diet in my house)? I'd like to use some
> a friend of mine bagged hunting recently, but I need to make sure my fiancee can
> eat it too.
>
> BTW, does anyone know where to get kosher grays? my future grandmother-in-law
> will be visiting soon.

Find all the chicken recipes you can dig up for this and substitute
the chickens with greys meat. You will have to marinate the grey for
a good half a day to get that tough leather skin off. Oil, garlic,
lemon will work for marinade(I got that from another poster, with
alittle twisting of the ingredients on my part).

Kosher recipes will work just as well, except the method of
snuffing them out must be kosher too.

Good Eatin'
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From: [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 03:36:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Michigan State University
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[e-mail] (J. Michael Tisdel) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>>
>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>>ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
>>>                         ^^^^^^
>>
>>>    BY KLONO'S TUNGSTEN TEETH!
>>
>>>    Attention, Lensmen!
>>>    It seems one of the members of that foul and indescribably horrid
>>>race, the Overlords of Delgon, has survived and seeks more of its evil
>>>kind! Prepare to blast it from the ether!
>>
>>>                KIMBALL KINNISON
>>>                Second-Stage Lensman
>>>                Galactic Patrol
>>
>>QX, Kimball.  And as the Overlords have preyed on my people for ages, let
>>me take the lead.  Death to the Overlords.
>>
>>                WORSEL of VELATIA
>>                Second-Stage Lensman
>>                Galactic Patrol.

>Pthbthbthb!
>                Lensman from Rigel
>                Galatic Patrol

Trig --

    You of all should know how insidious the Zwilniks are; so why
take that attitude towards the even more fiendish OVERLORDS.

WORSEL
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 08:34:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->

Hello Alien,

This is just a ploy by you alien to confuse us poor earthlings. Aliens know
full well who our leaders are and do not need taking to them. :) :) :)

Why are you communicating by primative means like Internet? It is well
known that aliens communicate by thought transfer. :) :) :)

If you have given up on trying to get sense out of our political leaders,
perhaps you need to make contact with the leaders of the world UFOlogy?
Many of the representatives of the International Committee for UFO Research
will be at the MUFON Conference in Alberquerque in July. Why do not
attempt to contact them?

Steve
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services,
Clinical Research Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (David Connors)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 08:05:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia.
Lines: 16

[e-mail] (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] writes:
>> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->

>No worries, NSA would have by now located your physical position.

And you get expect the good ol' US of A to blow your arse off this planet with
nuclear weapons.

   Dave Connors - [e-mail]     Griffith University, Australia
 - -- ---=-==-=================================================-==--=--- -- -
       " Beam me up, Scotty.  There's no intelligent life down here. "
          - James T. Kirk on his last visit to Griffith University
 - -- ---=-==-=================================================-==--=--- -- -
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: "Intruders" review
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 04:36:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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     (I go through  a lot of  ideas for "Skeptical  Eye" columns,  but
since I'm  limited to maybe  four thousand words--  and I'm a  chronic
over-writer--  I  really  have  to  winnow  things  down  a  bit.  And
frequently,  an idea'll  seen terrific  at first,  but then  I'll lose
interest, or it'll become outdated. So, here's another sample from the
Rev. P-K "Skeptical Eye" vaults-- stuff that just didn't  make it into
_The Humanist_.

     By the time this would  see print, it'd be about six  months down
the road. So I decided to scrap it-- but a TV and pseudoscience column
is on the back burner, and it'd be a nice excuse to pay some homage to
Harlan Ellison by titling it...)

                       _The Glass Teat, Revisited_

     About  thirty years  ago, former FCC  Chairman Newton  Minow once
described television  as a  'vast wasteland.' Today,  that "wasteland"
isn't so much a  landfill as it is _The  Road Warrior_ or _A Boy  and His_
_Dog_; vicious, brutal, cutthroat, and populated  by scavenging bands of
mercenary bandits. To get your attention these days, the networks have
to compete  with cable channels, pay-per-view,  videocassette rentals,
your  Significant  Other,   and,  in  rare  cases,  a  fulfilling  and
interesting life.
     I always  thought the reason CBS didn't go in for Roller Derby is
that  it would  have  embarassed  chairman  William Paley  at  society
functions. When  the three networks dominated,  they had to put  on at
least   a   pretense   of   'quality'   and   'taste,'   _Green   Acres_
notwithstanding. But cable and syndication entrepreneurs don't want to
enter the ranks  of Old Money, so the quality  standards have, uh, er,
_lapsed_ to the level of Monster Truck rallies.
     So, as the  costs of TV production  dropped to a few  grand for a
camcorder and  editing console, and  cable channels scrambled  to fill
their  airtime, people  realized that  they didn't  have to  pay Aaron
Spelling top dollar to treat them like bored gorillas. TV has become a
kind of free-for-all. That's  why the these are fabulously  rich times
for us fringe-watchers. Now, even people who chat with the Virgin Mary
can make videos that look as professional as _20/20_.
     This column was  going to be about  some of the more  interesting
fringe shows  on the cable  networks and through video  stores. But in
mid-May, CBS aired  _Ancient Secrets  of the Bible_  and _Intruders_.  The
former  was  a  cheap  'documentary'  produced  by  Sun  International
Pictures. The latter was  produced by top television talent  and aired
as a  'miniseries.' Sure, it was Sweeps Week, so we were due for seven
days of cheap attraction to 'regular folks.' But the network seemed to
be saying, "Yes, we _do_ regard our audience as a collection of cabbage-
brained yipyops. What of it?"

_"While cruising through the ionosphere, I saw these alien beings._
_Everywhere I went up there, they were shakin' their alien things."_
                                         -- The B-52's, "Cosmic Thing"

     Okay,  let's  talk about  _Intruders_.  The show  was  produced and
directed by Dan Curtis,  who's done terrific stuff  in the past;  _Dark_
_Shadows_, the original _Night Stalker_ TV movie, and the infamous _Trilogy_
_of Terror_ with  Karen Black.  He's also managed  to passably  recreate
World War II  on a TV miniseries budget, for _The  Winds of War_ and _War_
_and  Rememberance_. Apart  from a  few lapses, I  have respect  for Dan
Curtis-- except  he keeps  using that  awful three-note Robert  Cobert
music in his shows.
     But if there has got  to be a subject  on Earth more boring  than
the  whiny, our-story-must-be-told  complaints of  UFO  abductees, I'm
even  less interested  in hearing  about it.  I'm not  even dismissing
abductees as _crazy_. If  the tales of onyx-eyed fetuses  jamming probes
up  people's asses  are  any indication,  crazy  people are  _FAR_  more
creative and  interesting than  abductees. (Our local  CBS affiliate's
news show ran an interview with an abductee who, sitting in the middle
of  a  room stacked  to  the rafters  with  UFO  books, models,  alien
headcasts, astronomical  photos and posters, insisted  that she wasn't
crazy. Fine,  I thought;  you just have  a narrow range  of interests,
that's all.)
     The  show was  based  'in part'  on  Budd Hopkins's  book,  which
crippled things  from the start.  After all, there's no  real _story_ or
_end_ to it; it's just  a lot of case  histories. There hasn't been  any
resolution to the matter in  real life. Even if we  accepted Hopkins's
central  premise of  UFO abductions,  we  can't answer  the inevitable
"What _then?_"  question. For  example, the  film of Whitley  Streiber's
_Communion_  ended  drippily, with  Whitley  somehow  deciding that  his
intragalactic cornholing was a spiritual 'communion' with the ETs. And
considering  the  shaky  evidence  for  Hopkins's  claims,  I  find it
difficult to say that Curtis and  crew _fictionalized_ it into a  story.
Let's just say they took a few liberties with the text.
     The first liberty  was to  insert Richard Crenna  as a  respected
psychiatrist who becomes convinced of the reality of  abductions. This
allowed  the show to  dispense with artist  and psychiatric dilettante
Hopkins,  whose credentials  are strictly  on the  amateur  level. One
woman  in Nebraska turns up wandering on  a country road with amnesia.
Another, in  California, wakes  up to  have the  Men in  Black arrive,
wearing Devo jumpsuits and passing through the walls to do Unspeakable
Things  to  her. (Two  Hispanic children  tell  Crenna about  how they
watched the moon land  last night-- just like the  ancient Mexican who
reported the sun 'singing' to him in _Close Encounters_. Where would UFO
folklore  be  without  requisite,  simpleminded  ethnics?)  Both women
eventually come under Crenna's attention.
     A  tiny metal object is extracted from the Nebraska woman's nasal
cavity. The object conveniently manages to stay inert in a physician's
file  cabinet  for months,  so it  can  eventually show  Amazing Weird
Properties to Crenna _before_  deciding to self-destruct. The California
woman, in spite of taking precautions, inexplicably finds herself four
months pregnant.  Later on, the fetus  is stolen by the  aliens, so it
can be grown  in a massive  hatchery-- or, to supply  Operation Rescue
with  more "Three Days After Gestation" posters. Crenna also makes the
acquaintance  of mental patient Ben Vereen, whose proverbial load lost
the  requisite bricks  when  a  saucer  crashed  near  his  Air  Force
guardpost.
     Crenna is  reluctant to  accept the  extraterrestrial hypothesis.
(After all, if he believed it right off, we'd have a fifteen-minute TV
movie.) But he eventually sees the Error of his Ways, is expelled from
mainstream science, and  becomes a dedicated UFOlogist.  And when evil
general G.D. Spradlin  offers to let him join the  MJ-12 group, Crenna
gets to  refuse heroically because  it'd require  mouthing the  "party
line." (My thought was  _What An Idiot_. I'd accept just to see the Cool
Stuff in storage.)
     _Intruders_  managed to  erase  the line  between  fiction and  the
'facts' it was based on. Was that undeniably strange metal object part
of the 'fiction' or  'ostensible fact?' Was the one  woman's pregnancy
based on  independently-confirmable medical fact,  or was it  based on
the  say-so  of  an 'abductee?'  Are  viewers  supposed  to be  merely
'entertained'  by a  fictional story,  or are  viewers supposed  to be
seriously concerned about this burning issue of alien invasion? And if
someone we know claims to be an abductee, are we  supposed to get them
psychiatric care, or turn them over to a "support group" of people who
may reinforce the fantasy?

_"It was me and a gun  and a man on my back and I  sang 'holy, holy' as_
_he buttoned down his pants. . . _
_Me  and Jesus a few  years back used  to hang and he  said, 'It's your_
_choice, babe,  just remember I  don't think  you'll be  back in  three_
_days' time to you choose well.'"_
                                          ---Tori Amos, "Me and a Gun"

     What made me angriest was the reprehensible dramatic cheapness of
presenting the fantastic premise of alien abductions in the same terms
as the  very real trauma of  rape-- a theme reinforced  by focusing on
two _women_ as  the victims  of alien abductions.  (Victimized men  just
don't elicit  the same sympathy.) The show _used_ the pain and terror of
a woman's violation  for cheap  dramatics and to  support an  unproven
premise. If _Intruders_ was an original fiction, something solely from a
writer's  imagination,  and   never  intended  to  be  more   than  an
entertainment, then I could excuse the analogy.
     After  roughly  a decade  of new  attention  given to  sexual and
physical  abuse, children  of  alcoholics, dysfunctional  families and
other genuine horrors  of life, we now see the  phenomenon of "support
groups" for abductees. Philadelphia's  local UFO champion, Prof. David
Jacobs of Temple University, is fond of playing up the trauma, and how
people like he and Hopkins are trying to help these people while those
mean-spirited UFO  skeptics and the psychiatric  community ignore this
anguish and pain. To the abduction 'investigators,' the genuineness of
abductees' emotional  turmoil supports the genuineness  of UFOs. Well,
we  don't deny  the  trauma, but  we  _strongly_ doubt  the  explanation
offered-- and the  opportune claims  of Jacobs and  Hopkins that  they
'help' these people.
     But  in  effect,  _Intruders_   argued  that  if  one  doubts   UFO
abductions, one might just as easily  deny rape or child abuse. What's
even  sadder is that the fantasies of  alien abduction may be a _result_
of a less  'special' trauma-- a  trauma further glossed  over by  this
reinforcement of the fantasy.
     Not  only are  women  accused  of  making  up  rape  charges,  or
sometimes forced to  prove that  they didn't _encourage_  rape, but  now
they have to  face the prospect  of being  lumped in with  nonsensical
'alien  abductions.'  Coupled with  some  of the  religious  themes of
current UFO interest, this could result in some frightening parallels.
In a  scene at an abductees' support group meeting, one woman says she
felt 'flattered' and 'honored'  to be chosen for such  horrors; change
the context  from _alien abduction_  to _gang rape  at a frat  party_, and
you'll see what I mean.
     As  a  partial  antidote  to  the  UFO  hysteria,  the  bimonthly
"Skeptics UFO Newsletter" is self-published by none other than ace UFO
debunker Philip  Klass. A year's worth  of issues can be  had for $15,
and the address  to write to  is: Philip Klass,  404 "N" Street  S.W.,
Washington D.C. 20024.

     (A tip of  the hat  and an appreciative  nod to  fantasist/critic
Harlan Ellison. )









Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
New Sig File Under Construction-- Light and Compact for your Usenet Pleasure.
"The recent problem with the satellite retrieval managed to prove one thing;
DeVries graduates really _do_ work for NASA."
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From: [e-mail] (Nate Hawthorn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hard Copy shows NASA UFO video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 13:54:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Quake Public Access
Lines: 52

[e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:

> The syndicated TV infotainment show Hard Copy showed a NASA videotape
> beamed live from the Space Shuttle Discovery depicting a UFO flying
> above the earth.  The video appears to be black and white; the UFO is
> just a speck of light.  However, the light suddenly makes a right-angle
> turn and speeds off into space at what appears to be high speed (it
> actually seems to fly on a trajectory away from the camera, but seems to
> go at high speed because it becomes quite dim and disappears as it is
> moving a short distance on the screen).  A second or two after the UFO
> appears to speed off, an object shoots up at right angles to the earth,
> somewhat near the position of the UFO a second or two earlier.  Don
> Ecker of UFO magazine theorizes that the UFO was making an evasive
> maneuver to avoid being shot at.
>
> NASA claims the object is a piece of ice made from waste water dumped by
> the shuttle on a previous orbit.  They have no comment about the
> apparent shot coming from earth, or the apparent right-angle turn of the
> UFO.
>
> Whatever it is, it's very intriguing.  It's very hard for me to believe
> it was a piece of ice.  I would like to know much more, like what part
> of earth the UFO and shot were over, and if there were any UFO
> encounters in that area on that date.  I would also like to know what
> the astronauts on board the shuttle thought of the incident when it
> happened, and I would like to hear all radio transmissions made by them
> before and after the incident.
>
> Any comments on the video?
>
> Drew
> --
> Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
> [e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
>  ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongl
> * FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.


I agree, but as you can tell, YOUR GOVERNMENT is trying to say that you
are stupid enough to beleive their cover up!

So the question is:  Are you stupid enough to beleive your government?
Are you stupid enough to let them keep covering this stuff up???

The reason we don't know more is that people are being really STUPID!

So:

How can we do anything about this?????

(I'm going back to bed, and watch TV and forget all this and hide in my
little world)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 16:51:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
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[e-mail] writes:
>
> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->

Don't have one.  We do have some elected officials, but
I wouldn't exactly call them "leaders".  :-(

--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail] (Donald H. Locker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 02:52:29 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
> [deletions]
>>Hmm. Interesting. Sounds logic. What effect makes microwaves a health
>>risk? I do recall cooks getting cancer from first generation microwave
>>ovens that weren't shielded properly.
>
>No.  You recall urban legends about cooks getting cancer from first
>generation microwaves.
>

Were these the microwaves that were being used when the speed of light
was significantly higher?  Perhaps they *were* ionizing!! ;-)

Sorry, I'll go back to the salt mine now.
--
Donald.                                            Speaking only for myself.

I'm glad to see active research in AI, what with all this natural stupidity.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 18:14:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>>>    False.  Ionization occurs when a SINGLE PHOTON has enough
>>>energy to create an ion pair  (this is the 'photoelectric effect'
>>>that Einstein explained 80 years ago).  Microwaves are not ionizing
>
>>[I don't think it was Einstein. But that is a minor point]
>
>It was Einstein.

In fact, it was for his work with the photoelectric effect, and NOT his work
on relativity, that Einstein got the Nobel prize.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NASA Video..Most Interesting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 19:14:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 47
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
>The version shown to me is currently in the hands of a small group
>of private individuals whose names I cannot---and would not---reveal.

It's not that big of a deal.  I've got the version from
Hardcopy myself.  Videotaped it off the air.
                              ...
>  (C) This NASA nonsense about ice can be definitely ruled out
>      (especially if you see the other segments of the tape,)
>      but the possibility of the whole thing being a H-K
>      (Hunter-Killer) satellite test cannot---until somebody
>      figures out how to deduce the speed of the objects from
>      the video tape and arrives at a figure that mitigates
>      against making the rather extreme turns seen therein.
>      I may give it a go myself this summer, if I can find
>      some slack time.

I saw a posting earlier that mentioned camera motion.  This is
impossible, because the camera is pointed at the planet Earth, which
fills 80% of the screen.  The Earth can be considered a reference
frame, and it does not move at all in the video.

If the object is as close to Earth as it appears to be, then it is a
very luminous object.  It was also moving thousands of miles per
second after the change in direction.  It starts out drifting very
slowly across the globe (maybe 1 minute to cross the whole globe).
Then it really turns a (right angle) corner and accellerates
dramatically on its new course - it shoots off into space crossing the
Earth completely in about 1/2 second.

The object that takes off from the ground appears to accellerate at a
similar rate but crosses the path back where the first object was
originally before the right angle turn (the interceptor does not
appear to correct its trajectory or track the first object).

However, before everyone on this newsgroup assumes that this is
evidence of aliens, consider how much money the USA has spent on Star
Wars technology in the last decade.  I think it is much more likely
that this was some secret weapons test, and that could explain why
NASA has come up with this bogus ice story.  Good grief, at least they
could come up with something reasonably credible.  Ice doesn't zoom
off into space like that.  That is a pretty pathetic cover story.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rice!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: first contact in '93
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 18:43:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S0737338) writes:
>  No, I say first contact will be made in 94' in Idaho, moscow Idaho(vich).

To be honest, it's possible that the first contact will be sometime in
1993. This is based on a numerological analysis of the year itself.
1993 reduces as 1+9+9+3 = 22. Twenty-two is a "master number", ruled
by Pluto, indicating great change and utter transformation. Note that
the next year after 1993 which adds up to 22 will be 2299, over 300
years away. Therefore, something major should happen in 1993 that will
set the tone for us of Earth for the next three centuries, like
perhaps the beginnings of a formal extraterrestrial encounter. (Of
course years like 1984, 1975, 1966, etc, were also 22 years but this
is the final one for the milennium.) Interestingly enough, I've been
told that the influence of a particular year can begin as early as the
autumn of the previous year; therefore, my theory can still hold if
that Columbus Day 1992 landing turns out to actually be true (just
four months away, although I haven't heard anything about it lately.)

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hard Copy shows NASA UFO video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 19:20:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nate Hawthorn) writes...
>I agree, but as you can tell, YOUR GOVERNMENT is trying to say that you
>are stupid enough to beleive their cover up!
>
>So the question is:  Are you stupid enough to beleive your government?
>Are you stupid enough to let them keep covering this stuff up???

Don't you "conspiracy" dudes see even a little contradiction in this scenario?
Why in the world would OUR GOVERNMENT let us see this to begin with if it was
anything so controversial that it needed covering up?

BTW, is there any audio on this tape? Are the comments "WOW, WHAT THE HELL WAS
THAT!!", or is there nothing, no comments at all, cuz nothing of note was
occuring...

-Tom R.   milkwy.enet.dec.com!trandolph
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!wsu-cs!vela!vela!dlcogswe
From: [e-mail] (Dan Cogswell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: first contact in '93
Message-ID: <dlcogswe.708122639@vela>
Date: 9 Jun 92 20:43:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Lines: 14

[e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:

>To be honest, it's possible that the first contact will be sometime in
>1993. This is based on a numerological analysis of the year itself.
>1993 reduces as 1+9+9+3 = 22. Twenty-two is a "master number", ruled
>by Pluto, indicating great change and utter transformation.

What a bunch of crap.  Keep 'em coming.  Reading stuff like this makes me
feel smart.

--
Dan "Now let's measure our swan candle holder"  Cogswell
BS in CS looking for a job in 3D graphics somewhere south of Michigan.
Will work for free.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Kerry Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NASA Video..Most Interesting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 21:15:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Steve Warren) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
>>The version shown to me is currently in the hands of a small group
>>of private individuals whose names I cannot---and would not---reveal.
>
>It's not that big of a deal.  I've got the version from
>Hardcopy myself.  Videotaped it off the air.
>                              ...
>>  (C) This NASA nonsense about ice can be definitely ruled out
>>      (especially if you see the other segments of the tape,)
>>      but the possibility of the whole thing being a H-K
>>      (Hunter-Killer) satellite test cannot---until somebody
>>      figures out how to deduce the speed of the objects from
>>      the video tape and arrives at a figure that mitigates
>>      against making the rather extreme turns seen therein.
>>      I may give it a go myself this summer, if I can find
>>      some slack time.
>
>I saw a posting earlier that mentioned camera motion.  This is
>impossible, because the camera is pointed at the planet Earth, which
>fills 80% of the screen.  The Earth can be considered a reference
>frame, and it does not move at all in the video.
>
>If the object is as close to Earth as it appears to be, then it is a
>very luminous object.  It was also moving thousands of miles per
>second after the change in direction.  It starts out drifting very
>slowly across the globe (maybe 1 minute to cross the whole globe).
>Then it really turns a (right angle) corner and accellerates
>dramatically on its new course - it shoots off into space crossing the
>Earth completely in about 1/2 second.
>
>The object that takes off from the ground appears to accellerate at a
>similar rate but crosses the path back where the first object was
>originally before the right angle turn (the interceptor does not
>appear to correct its trajectory or track the first object).
>
>However, before everyone on this newsgroup assumes that this is
>evidence of aliens, consider how much money the USA has spent on Star
>Wars technology in the last decade.  I think it is much more likely
>that this was some secret weapons test, and that could explain why
>NASA has come up with this bogus ice story.  Good grief, at least they
>could come up with something reasonably credible.  Ice doesn't zoom
>off into space like that.  That is a pretty pathetic cover story.
>--
>            _.
>--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
>  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
>             V


I've been waiting for an explanation like this.  Speaking of
which, has anyone heard any new info about that new plane thats
supposed to replace the SR-71 Blackbird?  A couple of months ago
some it was possibly tracked out in California, buts thats the
last I heard.  This might be a more legitimite for the scepitcs.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!gatech!mcnc!rbdc!pinto
From: [e-mail] (Mike Pinto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 05:52:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]>
Organization: Red Barn Data Center Public Access Unix, Winston-Salem, NC.
Lines: 39
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6299 sci.skeptic:25446 alt.paranormal:5228

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>>Looking toward the surface of the earth, and just below the horizon, a
>>small light moved slowly (relatively, of course) from the right to the left.
>>Then suddenly, and without *apparent* cause, the thing immediately executes
>>a 90 degree turn and accelerates rapidly off across the horizon and into
>>space.  Meanwhile, at roughly the same location where the thing was at the
>>at it, and the thing anticipated the shot and evaded.
>>
>>Official explanation from NASA was "it was ice" left by the shuttle.  ICE?
>>That's a heck of a change in attitude and speed for a piece of orbiting
>>ice.

>Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
>Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
>your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
>of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
>leave the camera on during the "night", while the crew is asleep. The
>camera is then controlled from the ground, with a little joystick-type
>arrangement. If the mission controllers want to look over here, or
>over there, they just flip the lever, and the camera moves. And if
>some brain-dead UFOlogist just happens to be watching as the camera
>is turned away from a piece of ice, he says "Wow! Look at that baby
>accelerate!!!!!!"
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
   I saw this video too, and I would like to know: If the camera movement
caused the motion of the object, why is it that the only thing that moves
is the "ice"? From what I saw, the Earth remained completely motionless
in the background. Every camera pan I have ever seen has caused EVERYTHING
in the picture to move, not just a single object.
--
--
=====================================================================
Mike Pinto                  | If God had intended man to fly, he
[e-mail]         | wouldn't have put all the traction
                            | down here.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!gatech!taco!rock!seq!browntf
From: [e-mail] (brown todd f)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 13:04:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6300 sci.skeptic:25447 alt.paranormal:5229

[e-mail] (Jesse Mundis) writes:


>I did not see the footage in question, but for those of you who did, if it
>was camera movement, and the first person described "Looking toward the surface
>of the earth, and just below the horizon,"  Wouldn't rapid camera panning
>be obvious?  The ice/ufo would remain stationary w.r.t. the horizon.  I'd think
>a fast pan would be obvious since the scenery should move too.  If there were
>no background to measure camera movement by, I'd be much more inclined to
>"write it off."  So, could someone who saw the footage please comment on this?

A friend of mine copied it for me and I finally saw it last night.  The
segment is very short but I can definitely rule out the camera moving
to cause this change in course of the light object.  It appears first
drifting along away from the camera JUST BELOW the horizon.  Then,
suddenly and very deliberately, it takes a ninety degree turn and
accelerates OVER the horizon back into space away from the camera.  One
second later you see a  streak coming directly up from the planet.  It
does look as if the object manuevered to get out of the line of fire.

I would like to hear more about the rest of the video not seen on
Hard Copy.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!iscsvax.uni.edu!middleto5442
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 21:37:56 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa
Lines: 12



        Alien visitors?  Well, who knows.  I mean, anything is possible.
Except Quayle becoming President by votes.  Default, maybe, but you could count
the assassins.  Or should I call it a mercy killing?
        I remember the first time I saw something really wierd.  I was nine,
and on my way to night mass at church, which I now avoid at all costs.  The
moon, full, waas shining

night mass at the church, which I now avoid at all costs.  The sun was shining
not-so-brightly through a high-flying, light mist, and I looked up and saw a
halo of light around the moon
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From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 23:08:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 67
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Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mike Pinto) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted]
>   I saw this video too, and I would like to know: If the camera movement
>caused the motion of the object, why is it that the only thing that moves
>is the "ice"? From what I saw, the Earth remained completely motionless
>in the background. Every camera pan I have ever seen has caused EVERYTHING
>in the picture to move, not just a single object.

I only saw the video very quickly on Hardcopy (I would'nt mind
seeing it again) and found the original Nasa explanation implausible,
but camera motion seems like it could explain a lot to me.

Keep in mind that all we could see were lit dots - no detail and no
sense of depth. That white blip could be an alien space ship (or artificial
satellite) which is 5000 miles away or it could be a small piece of ice
5 ft. away.

It has been proposed that camera movement could not account for the motion
of the white blip because the  earth is seen to remain motionless in
the background while the blip changes but I wonder if this could be
explained in terms of the type of camera motion and the relative
distances of the blip and the earth. If the camera is translated
but not rotated the earth would not appear to move. For instance,
when you drive in a car at night and notice the moon apparently
following the car(because the rays are all hitting the car in a
parallel orientation).  The moon will continue to do this until
the car changes direction by making a left or right turn.
On the other hand an object which is close to the car, such as
a street lamp (or a piece of light refecting ice in the current
situation) seems to have relative motion, due to its proximity
to the car (space shuttle).

Another crude observation which I believes supports this
explanation is the apparent fact (as I remember it :-)) that
the "missile" path seemed to be parallel to the "satellite"
path.
         ^
    /               ^
       /             /
      /             /
    /missile          / satellite


As opposed to something like

               ^
             /  \
            /    \
           /      \
missile   /        \ satellite

which could not be caused by a single motion of the camera.
In other words, it seems like the direction of motion of the camera
was suddenly changed.

Of course, if the camera was swiveled or in anyway rotated then it
seems like the "camera motion" explanation might not suffice.

It would help to know exactly how the camera was mounted and in what
ways it could have been manipulated by the ground controllers.

Does the above seem plausible?
I would be especially interested in the comments of those who have
a copy of the film (or the fellow who claims to have the secret but
clearer version).

Dave.
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Kurtz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: re: Ufo vid from NASA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 20:16:13 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 64

I was able to videotape the ufo segment and so have been able to watch
it a number of times (I *am* an avid Hard-Copy watcher -- one of the
only tv news shows that makes no pretense to objectivity!!).  The
segment actually shows the video from two different perspectives -- as
part of the video segment itself, that is, the video "spliced" into the
segment, and filmed from what looks to be about a 13 inch tv monitor
from a distance of around 4 or so feet (perceived distance, not actual).
 The latter perspective is interesting in that the monitor being used
casts the black and white video in blue, enhancing contrast.  In the
blue monitor from around 4 feet, you are clearly able to see the white
streak moving in what looks to be an arc from below, sort of an
elongated "U".  It is unclear from the video whether or not this streak
of light intersects with the trajectory of the white dot.  In fact, my
first reaction was that it clearly did not; it seemed too close.  But it
was a weird perspective, shot from a weird angle, released by a weird
organization, and broadcast by a weird tv show, so who knows...

Jess Mundis writes
>Wouldn't rapid camera panning
>be obvious?  The ice/ufo would remain stationary w.r.t. the horizon.

The earth's horizon does remain stationary, and therefore the camera
also.  A correct conclusion?  I do not think how it could be otherwise.

Obvious questions:

Keeping in mind that NASA is the PR strongarm for the entire
military-industrial complex, wouldn't this footage be "newsworthy" to
others besides Hard Copy -- why was it not on the network news?  Did
anyone see reports of it in the NY Times or equivalent papers?  This
does not seem as silly as it sounds.  Sure, network news usually steers
clear of the anything but that which is boring and safe.  Still, NASA is
a government agency and the release of video from them indicates a
certain amount of scientific legitimacy.  Which hints at another
question:  if it were only a piece of ice, why did NASA release it at
all?  Could it have been leaked?  Does anyone know the particulars of
the release?

Are we able to garner any hard data from the video (Speed, trajectories,
distance)?  I'll leave it up to the math wizards out there.

One last thing:

T.R. Stone writes

>I've seen the video mentioned; actually, I've seen a version
>of it that had quite a bit more stuff on it that was along
>the same lines, just a bit stranger.  The version I saw included
>a segment showing (fairly clearly) two objects that
>appeared to be oblate and flickering as though they were
>spinning come across the field of view; a fast-moving "streak" comes
>up from below---presumably from Mother Earth---and appears to
>strike one of the objects.  The result?  I don't know...at the
>instant of apparent impact, the tape "cut away" to another segment.


Although I am not sure why anyone with such footage would conceal it
(there are plenty of ways of "leaking" it to those who would make sure
it would become public without risking their anonymity), I must say that
one of the amazing things about the footage that NASA released is what
we do not see.  It seemed to me that the white dot was still within the
field of view when the tape was cut -- either by NASA or by Hard Copy.

ak
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 23:55:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Lines: 29
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Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <q#=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>I spoke to James Oberg about this. He didn't know it had been on "Hard
>Copy", but he's quite familiar with the video. Apparently it's something
                              [...]
>Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
>Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
>your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
>of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
                              [...]
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

Hey, you skeptics make such a point of how quickly the True Believers
interpret events to confirm their point of view (a correct criticism,
BTW), but I don't see much difference between their approach and yours.
You eagerly embraced this explanation and proclaimed that it was true,
without ever having seen the actual footage in question.  For shame.

If you had actually seen the video we are talking about you would have
realised that the explanation you proposed here is impossible.  The
camera was aimed at the Earth the entire time and did not move at all.
It is much more likely that this was an advanced weapons test of some
kind, but of course NASA is not permitted to offer such an explanation.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!verifone.com!ed_l1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Skeptics' Predictions (was: Sylvia Brown Fraud)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 00:47:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:25461 alt.paranormal:5235 alt.alien.visitors:6305

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
[....]
>    predictions" each year which, even though 100% worthless like all
                                                              ^^^^^^^^
>    such "predictions", nonetheless got her a wide TV audience.)
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> --
>
>         Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

OK, Robert, how do you know that "all such "predictions"" are "worthless?"

Statistics and references please.
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From: [e-mail] (Nick Eads)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 15:29:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News System)
Organization: University of Louisville
Lines: 78
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6306 sci.skeptic:25462 alt.paranormal:5236
Nntp-Posting-Host: starbase.spd.louisville.edu

In <q#=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Eads) writes:
>>Did anyone catch today's Hard Copy (6/5)? (Of course, I hate to admit that I
>>saw it myself -- it was an accident.)  They showed what I feel is some of the
>>most impressive evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial activity.  The
>>video was shot by one of the astronauts on a recent (the most recent?)
>>shuttle mission.  I will describe the video as it was shown...
>>
>>Looking toward the surface of the earth, and just below the horizon, a
>>small light moved slowly (relatively, of course) from the right to the left.
>>Then suddenly, and without *apparent* cause, the thing immediately executes
>>a 90 degree turn and accelerates rapidly off across the horizon and into
>>space.  Meanwhile, at roughly the same location where the thing was at the
>>moment before turning, another something shoots rapidly *up* from earth and
>>into space.  According to the UFO investigator (pardon me, but I forget
>>his name, but he is on the UFO magazine staff), somebody "shot" something
>>at it, and the thing anticipated the shot and evaded.
>>
>>Official explanation from NASA was "it was ice" left by the shuttle.  ICE?
>>That's a heck of a change in attitude and speed for a piece of orbiting
>>ice.  Of course, one can't be sure of the distance from the shuttle, which
>>would be a vital piece of info.  I'm usually not impressed by UFO reports,
>>but this was something to see.  Anyone else catch it?

>I spoke to James Oberg about this. He didn't know it had been on "Hard
>Copy", but he's quite familiar with the video. Apparently it's something
>that some UFO enthusiast taped off the "NASA Select" cable channel late
>one night, got excited, and flew off the handle. The far-out fringe of
>UFOlogy has been promoting it ever since.

>Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
>Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
>your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
>of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
>leave the camera on during the "night", while the crew is asleep. The
>camera is then controlled from the ground, with a little joystick-type
>arrangement. If the mission controllers want to look over here, or
>over there, they just flip the lever, and the camera moves. And if
>some brain-dead UFOlogist just happens to be watching as the camera
>is turned away from a piece of ice, he says "Wow! Look at that baby
>accelerate!!!!!!"
>--

I'd like to see you use that explanation while *watching* the video.  You
obviously have not seen the video in question, and what your honorable
friend has not explained to you about the "panning camera" theory is this:
The thing accelerates *away* from the camera.  Get it?  Not zooming left
nor zooming right, but slightly right and dimming into the distance.  A
little quick trigonometry will show that it had a larger velocity
component (if the field of the video is taken as the x-y plane) in the -z
direction.  Furthermore, the attitude of the earth WAS NOT CHANGING
during the time the "piece of ice" was in motion.  I think you'd have to
concede that a camera pan would make this a most obvious giveaway.

And by the way, before you start calling what I watch "trash,"
and before you imply that I am a UFO trash junkie, let me say
that I have only seen that show twice in my life, and I don't care for
their journalistic methods.  I am also one of the tried-and-true
UFO skeptics, as I have found too many faults in *every* UFO story I have
ever investigated in a little over 15 years.  However this TV show happened
to show a piece of reputable film footage I have been unable to explain --
and I have looked for all the tell-tale signs.  Listen, my friend, your
explanation doesn't wash.  See for yourself sometime and show me your
verifiable disproof.  Trust me, I will be glad if you do.  As a fellow
skeptic, I just don't appreciate another skeptic sounding "high and
mighty" that they have the explanation when they themselves haven't even
tested their hypothesis on their own.  Alas, it seems some skeptics are
just as illogical and unscientific as some of the believers.
--
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
| Nick "The Cache" Eads        | [e-mail]         |
| EE Department                *----------------------------------------------*
| University of Louisville     | GEMail: N.EADS                               |
| Louisville, Kentucky 40292   | SciBoard (502-588-0864): Sysnick             |
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
|      Don't blame me; the Illuminati are responsible for everything...       |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!ukma!vlsi!starbase.spd.louisville.edu!nreads01
From: [e-mail] (Nick Eads)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A message for Keith Aitken...
Summary: Can't get in touch with you...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 16:50:14 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News System)
Organization: University of Louisville
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: starbase.spd.louisville.edu

Keith,
        I have attempted to EMail you several times in reply to your request,
but all messages are returned.  Any suggestions?  I have a full list of
author/titles for you as well as publishers...
--
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
| Nick "The Cache" Eads        | [e-mail]         |
| EE Department                *----------------------------------------------*
| University of Louisville     | GEMail: N.EADS                               |
| Louisville, Kentucky 40292   | SciBoard (502-588-0864): Sysnick             |
*------------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
|      Don't blame me; the Illuminati are responsible for everything...       |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!riacs!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Just visiting (this is a test)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 01:50:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: RIACS, NASA Ames Research Center
Lines: 5
Orginization: Georgia Institute of Shaftology

Please ignore this test.
(must be a conspiracy to cover up a post, huh?)
QUIT
HELP
quit
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!gatech!mcnc!borg!monet!davidson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 01:25:55 GMT
References: <q#=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mike Pinto) writes:
>[lots of stuff deleted]
>>   I saw this video too, and I would like to know: If the camera movement
>>caused the motion of the object, why is it that the only thing that moves
>>is the "ice"? From what I saw, the Earth remained completely motionless
>>in the background. Every camera pan I have ever seen has caused EVERYTHING
>>in the picture to move, not just a single object.
>
>I only saw the video very quickly on Hardcopy (I would'nt mind
>seeing it again) and found the original Nasa explanation implausible,
>but camera motion seems like it could explain a lot to me.
>
>Keep in mind that all we could see were lit dots - no detail and no
>sense of depth. That white blip could be an alien space ship (or artificial
>satellite) which is 5000 miles away or it could be a small piece of ice
>5 ft. away.

Perhaps further analysis of the tape would reveal more -- like whether
or not the UFO appears to fly beneath dark clouds on the earth's
surface.  After reviewing my tape of the program repeatedly, it seems
to me as if the brightness of the UFO changes somewhat occasionally --
and there are dark clouds visible in the earth's atmosphere.  However,
my freeze frame is not sharp enough for any real analysis.  Maybe if I
had a frame grabber and the original video.  :-)

>[...] If the camera is translated
>but not rotated the earth would not appear to move.

True.

>Another crude observation which I believes supports this
>explanation is the apparent fact (as I remember it :-)) that
>the "missile" path seemed to be parallel to the "satellite"
>path.
>
>[diagrams deleted]
>
>which could not be caused by a single motion of the camera.
>In other words, it seems like the direction of motion of the camera
>was suddenly changed.

I have a copy of the video in question and can state categorically
that the motion of the UFO and the "missile" are not parallel.  They
are in fact approximately 30 degrees away from parallel.

>It would help to know exactly how the camera was mounted and in what
>ways it could have been manipulated by the ground controllers.

Yes it would help quite a bit to know this.  I would also like to
see all records of commands sent to the shuttle to move the camera.
Was it in motion during the incident, and if so how was it moving?
Surely NASA has records of this.  What are they, just flying by the
seat of their pants up there?

>I would be especially interested in the comments of those who have
>a copy of the film (or the fellow who claims to have the secret but
>clearer version).

I taped Hard Copy so I have watched the video dozens of times.  What
really irked me about their segment was that they didn't let the
video run long enough.  They stopped the video before the UFO
completely disappeared -- it had become a dim streak.  One time they
let it run a few seconds longer but it was on a monitor behind Don
Ecker.  I would like to see the whole video, including any "secret"
versions. 8-)

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Xenon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 03:05:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
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In article <[e-mail]>
  [e-mail] (Mike Pinto) writes:
>[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>
>>Yes, it IS a piece of ice, floating in the payload bay of the shuttle
>>Discovery. It's illuminated by the lights in the payload bay. But what
>>your Trash TV program surely did not tell you is: what you saw was motion
>>of the CAMERA, not motion of the object. You see, NASA mission controllers
>>leave the camera on during the "night", while the crew is asleep. The
>>camera is then controlled from the ground, with a little joystick-type
>>arrangement. If the mission controllers want to look over here, or
>>over there, they just flip the lever, and the camera moves. And if
>>some brain-dead UFOlogist just happens to be watching as the camera
>>is turned away from a piece of ice, he says "Wow! Look at that baby
>>accelerate!!!!!!"
>>
>   I saw this video too, and I would like to know: If the camera movement
>caused the motion of the object, why is it that the only thing that moves
>is the "ice"? From what I saw, the Earth remained completely motionless
>in the background. Every camera pan I have ever seen has caused EVERYTHING
>in the picture to move, not just a single object.

It would seem to me that if the background object is *very* far away,
and the camera doesn't rotate in following the object but actually
translates, then the background object (i.e. the Earth) wouldn't move
at all.

Consider this: Go outside and look at the sun when it is setting.  It will
(one presumes) be west of you.  Turn to watch somebody crossing your
field of view.  The sun will shift in your field of view.  Then, when
someone crosses your field of view, move with them.  The sun will remain
west of you and since you are not changing the direction you are looking
it will appear to stay still.

Or am I missing something?

C Frog
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!!!-JASARITES.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 14:21:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
> [e-mail] (J. Michael Tisdel) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Michael Grimm) writes:
>>>[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>>>ATTENTION ALL JASARITES !!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>I am Jasa the second Emperor of the Plannet Delgon.
>>>
>>>QX, Kimball.  And as the Overlords have preyed on my people for ages, let
>>>me take the lead.  Death to the Overlords.
>>>
>     You of all should know how insidious the Zwilniks are; so why
> take that attitude towards the even more fiendish OVERLORDS.
>

 ... forget them it's the Qzxily'thks you've really got to worry about.

Jason
Janitor, Moonbase Alpha
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!hsdndev!taco!cjdcosta
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 02:19:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 14
Originator: [e-mail]


[e-mail] (David Connors) writes-
>[e-mail] (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]>,
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>> GREETINGS, PEOPLE! I'M AN ALIEN VISITOR. TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER!  X->
>
>>No worries, NSA would have by now located your physical position.
>
>And you get expect the good ol' US of A to blow your arse off this planet with
>nuclear weapons.

I know, I've been watching E.T. X-<
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!hsdndev!taco!cjdcosta
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FROM AN ALIEN...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 02:25:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 11
Originator: [e-mail]


[e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes-
>This is just a ploy by you alien to confuse us poor earthlings. Aliens know
>full well who our leaders are and do not need taking to them. :) :) :)

Actually, I'm looking for someone called Ripley. My big brother sent her a
present X->

Sleep well tonite,

--the alien.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!wingnut!pierres
From: [e-mail] (Pierre Stromberg)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Jun 92 21:08:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <q#=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sausage, SPAM, Baked Beans, and SPAM Incorporated.
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:6314 sci.skeptic:25486 alt.paranormal:5240

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jesse Mundis) writes:
>I did not see the footage in question, but for those of you who did, if it
>was camera movement,and the first person described "Looking toward the surface
>of the earth, and just below the horizon,"  Wouldn't rapid camera panning
>be obvious?  The ice/ufo would remain stationary w.r.t. the horizon.  I'd think
>a fast pan would be obvious since the scenery should move too.  If there were
>no background to measure camera movement by, I'd be much more inclined to
>"write it off."  So, could someone who saw the footage please comment on this?


     Speaking as a skeptic, I did indeed see this footage too and it definitely
got my attention. The camera didn't make any sudden pans. The horizon was
clearly visible and remained motionless as the action took place. A physicist
colleague of mine asked what the shuttle's direction and velocity was in
relation to the object. It's possible that the object didn't turn a sharp
90 degrees but that it may have only seemed that way. This is a good question
that hasn't been clearly answered but it's interesting to note that the
unknown object also quickly accelerated right after it made it's sharp "turn".
I'm glad that I found this thread in sci.skeptic as I was planning on posting
an inquiry about this footage. It really bugged me.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Pierre Stromberg         Microsoft Corporation         Redmond, Washington
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
uunet!microsoft!pierres   [e-mail]   decvax!microsoft!pierres
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" - Samuel Johnson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rpi!sarah!newserve!bingsuns!vu0208
From: [e-mail] (!)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: UFO video from NASA - The CAMERA was moving!
Keywords: UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Jun 92 06:44:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr News)
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:

Before i say anything let me admit that i haven't seen this UFO footage done by
shuttle.

But what i grab from other posters I have to make some comments about it,
no matter how ridiculous they may sound!

1) the alleged UFO was shot by a missle: who ever shot the missle should
   have known that shuttle Endeavor was up there !!!! doing something!

So it can't be US government doing the shooting definitely, why would they
jeapordize their shuttle and crew !!

2) the alleged "ice" piece (if that's what it was) cannot accelerate on its
   OWN and go into higher orbit than the shuttle itself!!

3) if indeed it was a UFO and it was shot by a missle and (what ever
   happened to it)... by showing it on TV what purpose does the US government
   or NASA was trying to serve??

4) recently, on CNN (after the Endeavor's mission) it was shown that some
   floating debris hit the shuttle and cracked a tile (perhaps made a
   big dent or mark) on one of its tiles....!!! is that any way connected
   to this UFO incident recorded by the shuttle ??

5) note that there is so much space junk out there that we may expect to
   encounter it as UFOs in the future

6) Any ideas about clearing and cleaning up this space deris/junk


happy ufoing
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mcws!NewsMeister
From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 03:58:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 95

Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
References: <[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.
>>
>>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>> [...]
>>from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>
>    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
>    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
>    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
>    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with

I don't quite understand. Do you agree with the previous poster that
there is no surface heating or do you disagree? And why would the
surface heating be amzing? It would of course, if water were
absolutely absorbing but my claim is that it only partially absorbs
microwaves. Thus, you do have surface heating, but it need not be amazing.

>    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
>    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
                         ^^^^^^^^
>    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
>    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
>    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
>    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply
dielectric
>    heating.

Are you sure this is always a constant? For ideal dielectrics it would
be, but in the real world isn't the dielectric "constant"
frequency-dependent? I don't claim a sharp peak but some "hills" and
"valleys".

Also, I don't quite see the difference between absorption heating and
heating in general. I guess, it depends on the definition. Heating
always means energy transfer. Energy is being transfered from the
source, which heats, to the sink, which is being heated. Thus, the
sink absorbs energy. Every type of heating involves absorption in some
way.

>    The loss tangent  and dielectric constant for glass and ceramics is
>    much much lower than water and other biological materials (not zero
>    and this is a problem in experiments in nuclear heating simulations
>    in my work with lower loss fluids than water).  Similarly, fat
>    has a bunch of salty water in it, this is a large contributor
>    to its ability to absorb microwaves of the appropriate wavelength.

Aha, so you do agree with me that there is some absorption which is
frequency dependent. If I interpret you correctly, we differ in what
exactly absorbs the microwaves. Since you are much more expert than I
am, I tend to believe you that it is the salty water.

>    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
>    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
>    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
>    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
>    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
>    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
>    we are discussing.

Maybe this is where all this "Hydrogen absorbs microwaves"
misunderstanding comes from. Your description can very well be
interpreted by the naive reader as "microwaves give Hydrogen atoms a
little push and thus excite the matter. Excitation is equivalent to
heat and this is the way microwave ovens work. Why Hydrogen? Well its
the lightest element and the poor, heavy working microwaves look for
the easiest excitable atoms and Hydrogen atoms probably wiggle best at
microwave frequency." A typical example of combining some scientific
knowledge with pure fantasies.

Anyway, I learn a lot in this discussion and I hope others do, too.
Thanks to everybody who has posted/is posting/will post.

Marcus
[e-mail]

 * Origin: gated usenet/mcws.fidonet.org [phone] (1:102/851)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mcws!NewsMeister
From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 04:25:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 56

Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>
>My knowledge of this is only diffuse as you may have noticed from my
>earlier article. Could you please elaborate a little more on what you
>write? How would you explain the fact that so many people think the
>Hydrogen has something to do with it? Someone must have brought that
>up in a very convincing way.

    Sure, if you explain why so many people believe in ESP.

    But seriously, if you did not understand the explanations offered,
    a more detailed explanation will take some work on your part (i.e.
    take a physics class, go check out a book on microwave heating).

>There were two main questions in this
>thread to be answered: How do microwaves heat up food and what are the
>health risks of microwaves.  Do YOU have an answer? I don't and with

    The first was answered several times.  The second was answered at
    least three times to my knowledge.  More detailed health risks
    can be had by searching in your local public library.  There are
    a number of standards.  If you are interested, I would be glad
    to provide a few references.

    However, once again, you will have to do a bit of work for yourself
    if you have not understood the explanations offered.

>my previous article I never intended to answer these questions. Thus,
>there is no need to argue against my hypothesis since I don't have
>one. I just noted that microwaves must be absorbed at least partially,
>since otherwise there would be no energy transfer to the food. And I
>also noted that I *think* (not know) that the Hydrogen has something
>to do with it but I don't know exactly what.

    They are absorbed, and hydrogen has something to do with it in that
    species containing hydrogen tend to be the ones we stuff in ovens.
    However, there is nothing magical about the frequency chosen, it
    just happens to be one of a range that would work acceptably.

                            dale bass



--
C. R. Bass                                           [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            [phone]

 * Origin: gated usenet/mcws.fidonet.org [phone] (1:102/851)
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From: [e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Jun 92 05:02:41 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>    But seriously, if you did not understand the explanations offered,
>    a more detailed explanation will take some work on your part (i.e.
>    take a physics class, go check out a book on microwave heating).
>    [...]
>    The first [question] was answered several times.
>    The second [question] was answered at
>    least three times to my knowledge.  More detailed health risks
>    can be had by searching in your local public library.  There are
>    a number of standards.  If you are interested, I would be glad
>    to provide a few references.
>
>    However, once again, you will have to do a bit of work for yourself
>    if you have not understood the explanations offered.

You are right, I think we can bring this thread to an end now. The
explanations offered have been very enlightening and if one looks at
them altogether, sufficient to guarantee understanding on my side.
Thanks again for the patience of anyone who offered explanations.

Marcus
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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: High frequency EM fields around body (was: Re: Anti-Gravity ?)
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Date: 8 Jun 92 04:40:12 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Marcus Edward Hennecke) writes:
>>>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (John Whitmore) writes:
>>>>    There is NO PEAK in water absorption involved in microwave
>>>>oven operation.  If the water WERE strongly absorbing, it would be
>>>>impossible to tell the difference from microwave cooking and
>>>>broiling (because the cooking would occur at the food SURFACE).
>>>>The experimental evidence is clear: water is transparent (or nearly
>>>>so) at microwave-oven frequencies.
>>>
>>>Now wait a minute. Since you seem to be an expert in this I would like
>>>to ask you a simple question: How does the energy get into the water?
>>> [...]
>>>from? And BTW, if you put large enough pieces of food in the
>>>microwave, cooking DOES start at the surface and it takes a while for
>>>the interior to get hot. The difference to broiling is that microwaves
>>
>>    The previous poster is correct, the surface heating would probably
>>    be amazing.  As for the 'surface' heating in ordinary microwaves,
>>    there is a characteristic depth for heating deposition in a
>>    dielectric in an electromagnetic field.  In things laden with
>
>I don't quite understand. Do you agree with the previous poster that
>there is no surface heating or do you disagree? And why would the
>surface heating be amzing? It would of course, if water were
>absolutely absorbing but my claim is that it only partially absorbs
>microwaves. Thus, you do have surface heating, but it need not be amazing.

    To be precise, there is volumetric heating 'near' the surface in
    microwave ovens.  If there were a absorption peak, there would most
likely
    be heating very very near the surface (maybe even ablative).  There
    is a big difference in degree.  And of course the dielectric absorbs
    microwaves.  There would be no heating otherwise.  It is just that
    we were discussing whether something 'special' occurs at 2.45 GHz
    that enables microwave ovens to work only at that frequency.  In fact,
    the same phenomena that happen at 2.45 happen at 0.9, 6.5 etc.

    You seem to be confusing dielectric absorption with the peaking that
    we were discussing, they are two different, but related phenomena.

>>    water and other typical biological molecules in a 2.45 GHz field
>>    the high dielectric constant and high loss tangent (especially
>                         ^^^^^^^^
>>    in anything with salt) cause most of the heat to be deposited in the
>>    first half inch to an inch of the material (if it were spherical,
>>    make the appropriate adjustments for non-ideally shaped dielectrics).
>>    This is quite difference from an absorption heat, it is simply
dielectric
>>    heating.
>
>Are you sure this is always a constant? For ideal dielectrics it would
>be, but in the real world isn't the dielectric "constant"
>frequency-dependent? I don't claim a sharp peak but some "hills" and
>"valleys".

     No it is not constant, it is frequency dependent, but it is still
     called a 'constant'.  Perhaps 'coefficient' would be better, but I
     do not make up the terminology.

     Also, if you understand this you should easily see the point.  There
     are no 'peaks and valleys' in the curve for dielectric 'constant'
     for most ordinary things shoved into microwaves between at least
     0.9 and 7 GHz.  The curve varies quite smoothly.  The peaks generally
     come at higher frequencies.

>Also, I don't quite see the difference between absorption heating and
>heating in general. I guess, it depends on the definition. Heating
>always means energy transfer. Energy is being transfered from the
>source, which heats, to the sink, which is being heated. Thus, the
>sink absorbs energy. Every type of heating involves absorption in some
>way.

     No one said there was not absorption. There is.  It is just that there
     is no absorption PEAK.

>>    The loss tangent  and dielectric constant for glass and ceramics is
>>    much much lower than water and other biological materials (not zero
>>    and this is a problem in experiments in nuclear heating simulations
>>    in my work with lower loss fluids than water).  Similarly, fat
>>    has a bunch of salty water in it, this is a large contributor
>>    to its ability to absorb microwaves of the appropriate wavelength.
>
>Aha, so you do agree with me that there is some absorption which is
>frequency dependent. If I interpret you correctly, we differ in what
>exactly absorbs the microwaves. Since you are much more expert than I
>am, I tend to believe you that it is the salty water.

     No we differ in the fact that we are discussing different things.

>>    Anyway, this is the classical description.  The molecular description
>>    involves polarization in that the fact that relatively localized
>>    charges exist in molecules.  They can be wiggled around by the field
>>    and create a dipole moment which the field can interact with and
>>    by which the field can deposit energy.   However, in no
>>    way is there a spectal resonance in water in the range that
>>    we are discussing.
>
>Maybe this is where all this "Hydrogen absorbs microwaves"
>misunderstanding comes from. Your description can very well be
>interpreted by the naive reader as "microwaves give Hydrogen atoms a
>little push and thus excite the matter. Excitation is equivalent to
>heat and this is the way microwave ovens